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Kick Start; there he goes again...

44K views 249 replies 8 participants last post by  Damocles 
#1 · (Edited)
I'm going to have another go at it. It's Jeff's fault. I was over it. He was the one who had to come back with that whole spiel about "putting my Gen 2 away, dead battery, cranks so slow, yadda yadda stuff".

A couple of parts have to come from Partzilla first, so in the meantime we'll play with the igniter. Since Denso can't and Kawasaki won't, I'm left to my own state of confusion to try and sort things out.

"And there he goes, swinging a dead cat around by the tail," Tom said curiously.

Here's the pinout for the igniter with a rough idea of where the wires go. edit, updated image


Tom
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Paul,

I did sell one set. I need the stopper plate and the gear-disengager to comlete the set I have. I also ordered up some extra clips and thrust washers. The stopper plate is available. For the gear disengager I'm going to modify a KX500 item. I also ordered a new kick lever return spring because they can get a bit weak and I don't know the history of the one I have. Looks good, but...

There was a complete low-mileage set-up for sale the other day and it was located up in Crockett, CA. Just missed out on it by asking questions rather than pulling the trigger. No biggie, as I do have the stuff, though my basket is a bit notched. The seller and I started a long-running conversation on the FB chat thing, so that was nice.

Now, to infinity and beyond!

I took one of my igniters and started checking from pin to pin to see where there might be circuitry in the thing. When doing this, there are two ways to check from one pin to another. Say we are checking from pin 1 to pin 5. It should be checked with the negative lead of the ohmmeter on pin 1 and the positive lead on pin 5, then they should be switched around. You'll see why in a second.

This is the baseline data:


What this tells us is that there doesn't seem to be any circuitry associated with pins 3, 4, 6, 7, 10 and 11. I need to change my graphic to note that. Since there is circuitry associated with pins 5 and 9 (even though Kawasaki put a wire on 9 that isn't on the schematic) one might conclude that Kawasaki chose an off-the-shelf Denso item to use on the KLR. The connectors are standard Furukawa header and female connectors; nothing special about them. This exact series of connectors is readily available in 4, 6, 8, and 16 pin configurations.

Pins 8 and 16 appear to have a diode at the pin, because they don't measure the same in both directions. When we switch the leads on the ohmmeter around, the way we go against the diode shows up as infinity.

Pins 1, 5, 9, and 15 have direct connectivity to one another; not surprising as pins 9 and 15 are grounds and pin 1 must be the grounded side of the crank sensor.

Here's a simplified version with the non-active pins removed.


Now, beyond the above, all of this is about as useful as boobs on a boar. It doesn't tell us anything about the functionality of the unit.

Special thanks to Jeff for being Jeff and to Mr. Phair for teaching me about black box analysis in the sixth grade (what the hell were you thinking?).

Tom
 
#4 · (Edited)
Alright!!! I AM IN!!!
I have absolutely no background in electronics but I do have an as yet uninstalled kickstart setup(from Tom 2yrs ago) and both a gen1 and gen2 as a possible home for it. Ironically the gen1's nearly new battery committed suicide this summer, so the gen1 is non running. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help Tom.
Restating the questions:
1)Why can't you kickstart a gen2 ?
2)Why can you push start a gen2 but not kickstart one?
3).....Why can you start one on the battery with it barely turning over, but can't kick it?
JJ
 
#12 ·
3).....Why can you start one on the battery with it barely turning over, but can't kick it?
JJ
The spark intensity of a Generation 2 depends upon ignition coil primary winding saturation from 12 VDC battery/rectifier. If the battery has enough juice to saturate the coil, you'll get a hot spark at any cranking speed.

On the Generation 1, spark intensity depends ENTIRELY upon rpm; battery health has no effect. Even with a dead battery, your Generation 1 will run, if, for example, you bump-start it.

Or . . . if you had a KICK STARTER! :)
 
#5 ·
3) Why can you start one on the battery with it barely turning over, but can't kick it?

Glad you're in , Jeff!

I need to do some planning, though.

What if I put the kick-starter in and it works? Jeez, that would be embarrassing! What should I do? Fake my own kidnapping? Move to Egypt or or the Basque region?

Partzilla is probably about a week out. I owe a shout-out to Spike613 for the idea of looking for other bikes that use the same stopper and grabbing the gear-disengager from that bike. Turns out you can still get the one from the KX500. I'll see if it can be modified to work. Spike sort of faded away on us; he was going to try it, too.

Tom
 
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#7 ·
No clue about the KX500. I think they quit making them over 10 years ago.

Tom
 
#10 · (Edited)
Nah, he knows too much.

I got an update from Partzilla. The longest lead item will be available to them on Thursday, so I might see stuff by mid next week or so.

The KLR needs to accumulate another 100 miles so I can drop the oil and send in a break-in oil analysis.

Then I can pull side covers and install the fresh inner cover on the left side and the kick-start on the right side.

The clutch cover has been modded for 100% oil filtration. I've done that mode three times now; almost got it down to about 15 minutes of work plus 24 hours of cure time.

I don't know what to do with the ingiter to learn more. Open to suggestions. I could power it up and see what signals I get. Have to think about that. That's outside of the realm of what Mr. Phair taught me in the sixth grade and getting into what Ferd Burns taught me about systems engineering. He was a crusty bastard, but he went to China with Nixon, so there's that...

Tom
 
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#14 · (Edited)
This is frustrating.

I made a test connector and grabbed up a crank sensor coil and the strongest magnet I have in the Shop of Horrors.

Figured out that I could induce a voltage of about .1V in the coil by waving the magnet at it.

Hooked up the coil and then ran these tests:


All I got was more ignorant.

The first set, with the Y/R wire not hooked up, was sort of what I expected, except for the BK/W wire.

When I hooked up the Y/R wire I had hoped to be able to see voltage coming and going on the Black wire, but I got confusing data. Sometimes it would have about 10V, sometimes it would oscillate between about .25V and .4V, but most of the time it did nothing. Waving the magnet at the coil had no effect.

I need to figure out what the BK/W wire is for.

I wish Damocles would explain to me how the interlock circuit works so I don't have to figure it out. It looks like a snake eating its tail.

Tom
 
#18 ·
Yeah, that's what the BK/W does, but I can't figure out why. I noted that when I traced the igniter pin-out a couple days ago. Couldn't figure out why.

Turning the ignition off powers everything down, so why the need to ground the igniter? It's only source of power is the brown wire. What's it going to do, get hit by lightning and start the bike?

Paul, all three modded covers are mine.

Tom
 
#20 ·
Yeah, that's what the BK/W does, but I can't figure out why.

Turning the ignition off powers everything down, so why the need to ground the igniter? It's only source of power is the brown wire. What's it going to do, get hit by lightning and start the bike?

Tom
Tom,
I have a 1955 Chevy 3100 Series 1 pick-up. Converted from 6V to 12V, generator to alternator. The engine runs for an extra second or two when the key is turned OFF! I don't know WHY! I don't care to figure it out. It turns OFF.

You are trying to turn the KLR ON, we do hope that you figure it out.
 
#19 ·
I'm getting a headache trying to trace the interlock through all the switches, turning them on and off in my head.

I wonder what I need to do with the BK/R wire when bench testing the igniter. Seems like it should be grounded, but through a small load. Gah.

Tom
 
#22 ·
From pg186 of Clymer manual Ignition system,
"The ignitor also monitors the position of the gearshifter and sidestand through the respective switches.The ignitor stops the ignition if the sidestand is down and the transmission in in any other gear than neutral or if the transmission is shifted out of neutral with the sidestand down."

This is done through the interlock diode unit which connects to the ignitor vis the R/BL wire you are questioning.
JJ
 
#23 ·
Jeff,

On the Gen 2, if I'm not mistaken, there is at least one place where electricity goes in two different directions, depending on whether or not the starter button is depressed.

Trying to figure out what the BK/W wire does, and what state it should be in on the bench, is an interesting exercise. I think I got it figured.

Tom
 
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#25 ·
It don't seem to do nuthin'.



Of course, I have to figure out what it takes to turn the black wire on, and I haven't gotten there yet.

If this is the way it works then I'm beginning to think i gave up too early the last time around and was doing something stoopit.

In a couple of weeks if my buddy Chaz, 12R12RT, comes on and posts up that I was tragically killed in an incident involving figs you'll know...

Tom
 
#27 · (Edited by Moderator)
It don't seem to do nuthin'.



Of course, I have to figure out what it takes to turn the black wire on, and I haven't gotten there yet.

Tom
The black wire on the igniter is the ground from the coil, so it is a power In wire, yes?
 
#26 ·
There is connectivity between pin14(Bl/W) and pin8(Br) on your pinout chart.Would the Bl/W be discharging a capacitor in the ignitor once the ignition switch is turned off?
JJ

PS....Figs as in Fig trees???
jj
 
#30 ·
#28 · (Edited)
No I don't think so....Being that the pos side of the coil is powered continuously when the key is on, the black wire has to be the ground/negative circuit that the ignitor is switching on and off to collapse the primary field in the coil to induce the high voltage output in the secondary coil windings producing the spark at the plug. The black wire is also sending signal to the tachometer for rpm. Switching the black wire off and on should be a function of the ignitor reading the crank position sensor fluctuations.
I wonder if a test light or meter in place of the coil could sense the on/off cycles?
jj
 
#29 ·
Judging by the direction of flow indicated on the Interlock diode unit the flow is out of the ignitor? and it is a negative circuit being connected eventually to the neg side of the starter relay.
jj
 
#32 ·
I guess that I was envisioning it as two kinds of power, positive and negative when in reality it is a flow of electrons from positive to negative. I took Paul's statement to mean it would need a positive power wire supplying that pin.
Slow is good! I have all winter to complete this project. Cold weather and S N O W are imminent here....
jj
 
#35 ·
Yes, that's what he said. It's really what you said, too.

When the ignition switch is turned on, power goes to the coil. It comes out of the coil at the black wire. If you were to measure it at that point you'd see +12V; the 'input' at pin 16/Bk wire is +12V.

Inside the box, when the transistor swtiches, it connects pin 16 to ground, thus grounding the negative side of the coil and collapsing the coil's field. That creates a huge voltage release from the secondary and the only place it has to go is across the spark plug gap. (I know you know all this but it helps me to write it down)

This video helped me, though you have to pay careful attention because the red lines and the current flow arrow are fuzzy. Damocles has posted this video before.



Tom
 
#34 ·
I remain ignorant.

I tried to see if I could detect the switching with an ohmmeter across 16 and 15.


Then I tried to see if I could detect the swtiching by observing a current flow through pin 16.


It didn't do anything.

I have a 'momentary on' switch connected to the +1.5 source that attaches to the crank sensor inputs. I always try tapping that to see if anything changes. It doesn't/didn't.

My only plan at this point is to go stare at it. Sometimes that works.

Tom
 
#38 · (Edited)
Quote Tom"I have a 'momentary on' switch connected to the +1.5 source that attaches to the crank sensor inputs. I always try tapping that to see if anything changes. It doesn't/didn't."

Tom the procedure for testing the crank sensor peak voltage in the Clymer manual specifies it should produce 2 volts or more or it should be replaced. This makes me wonder if the 1.5v you used was perhaps not enough to trigger the switch in the ignitor.
jj

The video makes me wonder if switching the polarity of the simulated crank position sensor voltage will trigger the switch in the ignitor.
 
#67 ·
I can't Paul, my Gen2 is packed away in winter storage.
jj
Tom,
Did you also miss these 2 postings? Is your bike in a condition in which you could check the CPS VAC output at cranking speed?
The CPS gains voltage with RPM. May be part of the timing advancement?

Damocles,
That is good info. It corresponds to what Norm has discovered about installing a Gen2 rotor on a Gen1. The Dwell time of something is controlled by the Length of the steel timing strip on the rotor.

Norm has found that shortening the long Gen2 strip to Gen 1 length, eliminates a higher rpm miss or stutter caused by a Gen2 rotor used on a Gen1 CDI system. I think he has it on Facebook. I had received it via e-mail.
 
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