Camshaft Oil Pressure, 2hr ride data - Page 3 - Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum
1987 to 2007 Wrenching & Mods For maintaining, repair or modifications of Generation 1 KLR's. 2007 and earlier.

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post #21 of 78 Old 11-21-2013, 11:14 AM
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All you need is a continual flow; oil pressure can be very low.

Take a look at the early part of pdwestman's thread "Oil pressure - how much ya got?".

He had a banjo fitting that was almost totally blocked by a chip of metal. It was the banjo fitting that feeds the head, adn recorded pressures were less than 1psi . He reports that his cam journals are well within spec after running that way for 60K miles.

If you completely lose flow, then the head is a goner. Keep oil in the sight glass.

T

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“She went out slowly. The way she did it hadn’t been learned at business college.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.

Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 11-21-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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post #22 of 78 Old 11-21-2013, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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klrophile and Tom,

The Restricted Banjo Bolt was the FIRST one by the Starter Motor.
Feeds the oil pipe, which divides 1/2 to the 4 Cam bearings and 1/2 to 5 'free spinning' transmission gears, 1 clutch bearing and the upper rear, engine balancer shaft.
So that is 4 + 7=11 points of lubrication, that Survived 63,944 miles, with a miniscule amount of lubrication, each.

I almost still can't fathom that Fact! How did MY engine Not Need a warranty rebuild, with-in the 1st month? That would have been July or August 1987.

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post #23 of 78 Old 11-21-2013, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
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Ya' know, That Might also indicate just, How Much of a Torrential "OIL Storm", is coming OFF of the connecting rod big end bearing.
May be that is/was, what spared the transmission? Food for thought.

pdwestman
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post #24 of 78 Old 11-21-2013, 04:18 PM
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IME, the issue isn't pressure because pressure is simply an indicator of resistance to flow. I am sure that you already know this so only trying to establish context. I've been struggling with a means to assess oil flow volume to the camshaft area, and especially to the right exhaust journal.

As several posts have asserted, there seems no issue with camshaft life in the KLR as produced, unless oil volume is near zero. Pdwestman's photo of a piece of swarf in one banjo bolt hole reminded me of another partially plugged banjo noted on a thread some years ago. This indicates further that the oil supply seems to be adequate.

Any indication of the flow volume to the cam bearings at the 5 PSI noted? KLR oil pressures at the test port are often < 10 PSI when warmed up and running on highway, IME. This likely translates into something lower to the camshafts but haven't been motivated to measure as noted earlier that there seems no pattern problem.

I absolutely agree with klrphile, that too oil delivery low can result in burning cam journals and share the concern which seems to be suggested that opertaining below the safe limit has very serious consequences. No one offered a valve cover for construction of a window or camera port and am beginning to lose interest as there seems little profit in pursuing the investigation in the light of no pattern of failures excepting when oil is low. Maybe missing something but there seems little prospect of improving not apparent camshaft problems.

Pdwestman's oil consumption hypothesis is interesting to follow and consider however we lack data to differenciate oil consumption causes. It may be that reducing oil throw off will reduce oil consumption in some engines but this may be a matter of reduced oil delivery which does not cross the short term failure boundary and helps to address oil consumption by partially starving the lower end. No matter where I go in thinking about this issue, I must return to the problem in evaluating the oil delivery volume and that of assessing the oil delivery necessary. I have noticed no data.

One major difference in systems between that of the KLR650 and that of the huge number of automotive and commercial engines in which excessive throw off was the basis of oil consumption. As I noted in posts elsewhere, replacing piston rings with refinished cylinder walls did not reduce oil consumption sufficiently in the cases in which worn main bearings were flowing too much oil. In the case of the KLRs of which I have been familiar, these started using oil at some mileage quite subsequent to new. There seemed to be no discernable wear to connecting rod big end and, regardless, would not expect a rolling element bearing's oil flow rate to significantly change, unlike an insert type bearing.

If forced to pick a position to defend, it would have to be that the oil consumption issue is a piston ring/cylinder wall oil control issue rather than excessive oil throw off. That said, still more than happy to do what can to assist Pd's investigation. If his hypothesis is correct, it may be possible to reduce oil consumption issues in affected engines without disassembly. One has to like that even if it seems a faint hope. That, and there's nothing better than to find that one is wrong.

Finding one is wrong and that's better than being right....sounds like a good definition for marriage.
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post #25 of 78 Old 11-22-2013, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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Bump,
Norm, I just wikipediad. Chilliwack.
I had thought, maybe you were way-up north, still!
Your barely across the border.

Tom, Any chance you could move a pic or two and video over here?
Or someone post a 'link' to pics and vid?

pdwestman
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post #26 of 78 Old 11-23-2013, 12:35 AM
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The main Canadian population is close to the US border. Other than for Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba which have fairly uniform distribution in the southern 1/2 of the provinces, the remainder have few people far north of the border.

We did spend 11 years in Yukon (next door to Alaska) and about 10 years on the Prairies so have some cold weather experience. It was below minus 62 F for the whole six weeks during which I taught in Pelly Crossing one year. Even the snowmobiles were having frost bite.

It is interesting to try to follow some posts in which there is no indication as to location because there's a huge difference between someone talking about hot conditions or cool conditions for someone from Arizona versus say your area.

Time to hit the hay.

Best,

Norm


Quote:
Originally Posted by pdwestman View Post
Bump,
Norm, I just wikipediad. Chilliwack.
I had thought, maybe you were way-up north, still!
Your barely across the border.

Tom, Any chance you could move a pic or two and video over here?
Or someone post a 'link' to pics and vid?
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post #27 of 78 Old 11-23-2013, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdwestman View Post
Bump,
Norm, I just wikipediad. Chilliwack.
I had thought, maybe you were way-up north, still!
Your barely across the border.

Tom, Any chance you could move a pic or two and video over here?
Or someone post a 'link' to pics and vid?
I'm not sure which pictures and videos you mean; let me know and I'll be happy to do that.

Meanwhile, to tide us over, a video from one of my favorite bands...


T

Tom [email protected]

“She went out slowly. The way she did it hadn’t been learned at business college.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.
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post #28 of 78 Old 11-23-2013, 09:50 AM
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Machine chip in the first banjo bolt, in there since 1987!


Fittings used to measure cam oil pressure.



Original test gauges. Used to measure main pressure and camshaft pressure simultaneously in the shop.


Camshaft banjo bolt with permanent gauge adapter (in dash).



Gauge in dash, note mileage 69,005.

Tom [email protected]

“She went out slowly. The way she did it hadn’t been learned at business college.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.

Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 01-08-2018 at 11:36 PM.
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post #29 of 78 Old 11-23-2013, 09:51 AM
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Oil consumption and fitting notes.



Fine magnetic debris on filter magnet in lieu of magnetic drain plug after 5,000 miles.


Modified crankshaft oil orifice.



Contouring of oil filter cavity for smoother oil flow into filter media.

Tom [email protected]

“She went out slowly. The way she did it hadn’t been learned at business college.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.

Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 01-08-2018 at 11:38 PM.
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post #30 of 78 Old 11-23-2013, 09:51 AM
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video demonstration of oil pressure measured at camshaft (cold oil).


Special Thanks to Nat S. a local KTM/Kawasaki rider.

Tom [email protected]

“She went out slowly. The way she did it hadn’t been learned at business college.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.

Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 02-21-2017 at 03:26 PM.
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