The Doo is NOT "Cake" Ya'll; NEW NOISE after reassembly!!! - Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum
1987 to 2007 Wrenching & Mods For maintaining, repair or modifications of Generation 1 KLR's. 2007 and earlier.

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post #1 of 12 Old 05-12-2019, 05:46 AM Thread Starter
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The Doo is NOT "Cake" Ya'll; NEW NOISE after reassembly!!!

Did my '03 Gen1 Doo (21,500 mi, Valve job next).

Started motor… and
wow,
beautiful.
A veritable SYMPH… ony.

15 second Video of SymphonyStartUp after 1st Doo Install...
(apparently I can't add a Video but can add a link for one it seems. I checked it though, this one's GoodToGo).



I also simultaneously replaced to new the MainDriveChain&Sprockets (several Rollers gave out and Chain had 3" play in one area, 0" in another in just a half tire rotation).

PIC CHAIN/SPROCKET BEAT!!! oops

[IMG][/IMG]





BrightnShiney the new ones, YES?

(Gold X-Link, 16/43… lotta 60/101/202 commute Mesa/Tempe/Mesa… 'bitta UrbanWarrior to Ride it!]

But, now that I done did my Doo, I have a NEW and VERY BAD noise when I Ride maaaan…

I think I'm getting close to the (more) right solution with continued research ('bout 2wks now since I put her away) and I got some SOLID feedback too [Kelly'sKawServiceDept in Mesa, Darin from KLRForum (Rode 4Peaks with him/RobF from MeetUp AdventureBikes early April).
I've done some pretty dogged research, too… parta my penance I reckon.

BACK TO THE WORK
New Chain/Sprockets photos above just go to somewhat 'prove' at least a New Chain&Sprockets as you might think me not-so-schmart here in a bit. I wanted to more show Chain/Sprkts weren't the source of the…
ClacketyGrindingSound
I may have misspelled it but you won't even need VideoTimeMarkers to know what doesn't sound right…

I cannot even describe the sound well except to say,
"… it reminds me of a sorta muffled grinding clackety-clack-clack-claa…
and even nonMotorHeads know that's not a good sound, AT ALL!

BTW, All Vids were shot with NO ChainGuide/Chain Guard/SprocketGuard installed yet.
NOR was there any ChainLube yet (which explains droning tone of New Chain&Schprockets).


Without further adieu:
(Link checked, 7 seconds long)



So, now I have a Noise in my Motor.
A F'n NASTY-arseNoise dadGummit!
I, I, I don't…. I…

Qs of the DayWeekMonthYear for me RIGHT NOW…

1. After just doing my Doo I have a NewDamnMystery Engine sound that shows up under power in Gear, and in Neutral and on Suspension Compression (driveway threshold bump & leaning on turns).
And I think it's because I screwed up the Timing by not correctly RE-placing the twice-incorrectly pulled IdlerShaft resulting in 'reset' Timing and a sheared Woodruff Key for starters. And ohBTW, just how the F did I do THAT on ReInstall?!?!

2. Am I F'd or what?


DOUBLE-CHECKED BEFORE DOO JOB!
I did my homework, too; I researched the Doo for months ya'll… read seemingly everything and saw most of the Vids and EVEN did my due diligence on this Site!

And I knew the following needed to be present on "Un" AND on "RE" Installs!
All Thrust Washers,
Woodruff Key,
STUPID-frikkin' Idler Shaft,
AND the DooSpring (and CONFIRMED Operational)..
I WAS READY…

SO, FINALLY THE COVER(s) REMOVAL
When I took the Doo CaseCovers off about Eleventy-Seven things fell into the case/sump/whatever the F that chasm is down there that ATTRACTS all the shite off the Left Side case and perhaps even off my GarageFloor??? Okay, not really from my GarageFloor, but when you see what I found… And it sounded like a gd Pachinko Machine when I took that cover off maaaaan!!!! Talk about my heart sinking into my butt!!!

FOUNT:
1. OEMDooSpring,
2. 'broken' end OEMDooSpring,
3. a case/cover Pin on the floor, and
4. some black bits (chain guides wearing).
5. One ThrustWasher that fell into the chasm, though was easily retrieved
6. A somewhat rusty spring on the floor that I thought might be from the ValveTrain above (engine running too smoov for that though)… stray spring it is then!
7. I ID'd one piece as a (Drive)ChainRoller split HALF (musta fallen ON Case and IN Case upon Open), AND
8. AAAALSO found the F'n Woodruff Key that NONE of the Vids/Blogs mentioned anywhere!!!
Okay, one did… BUT JUST BARELY!
I guess I missed THAT IMPORTANT PIECE OF INFORMATION…
FINE!
BTW, that Key ain't Magnetic!!! First time I got my tweezers on it (SemiCircleShape) while at the bottom of the case near that BlackHole I schlipped off the Key with the tweezers and almost SHOT IT WARP SPEED and VERY DEEP into the Engine, or is it actually a Sump (AND "could it send stuff to the Tranny through there?" No, seriously, IDK. Can it?).

I MagnetDredged that little shite cave of oil at the bottom of the Case. I pressed in pretty deep and back up toward the front of the Motor with that pen-sized-telescopic magnet, and several times too (tell me that's just a Sump down there please).

Busted Chain Roller plinking when Cover removed...

[IMG][/IMG]



ENTER BIG MISTAKE…

"THE IDLER SHAFT"
dunDUNDUUUUUNNNNNNNA!!!!!!!!

Removing the Doo OF COURSE F'N means I gotta pull the Idler Shaft OUT (even though told not to)! I visually checked to ensure the Spacer behind didn't fall in. I pulled that Shaft out a 2nd time too (snagged it with my Nitrile and yanked it RIGHT THE F OUT)!

Yeh, I know, I’m looking really uneducated about all this now I am. Anyway…

I know enough now (AfterTheFact) to ensure it don't never come out not no how not no way not never again that IdlerShaft, but…

BOTH times I put it back in, I can attest to not paying EXACT attention as to how I fit it back in other than to not force it and ensure the Washer present. The Idler Shaft return to it's hole seemed to be like it was attracted back to a groove and almost just falls back into place when it goes.

HOWEVER!!!!

and much to my chagrin,
that does NOT mean that it went back in EXACTLY the way it came out,
ToothForTooth and NO MOVEMENT to the Chains… In fact, one time I saw the TimingChains move around so I'm thinking I messed up the Timing to also create the WoodruffKeyShear!!!
This was NoMatter at the time as I was not aware of this 'Timing' stuff pretty much.
Is this important?
Turns out, VERY MUCH SO!!!

So I re-assembled without checking TimingChains (SilverIndicatorLinks, TDC & all that) and perfectly duplicated the same sound(s) on the 2nd DooJob TestRide.
Really, 'zackly the same stuff.
Please note: Same Noise present after 2ndDooJob and the Motor is Off tho she's in Gear at the end here, turning L into the driveway.

15 seconds 'checked link' for some UglyNoise...




So, I broke my KLR… for now.



The more I've discovered/learned is that it's most likely this I think...
but ain't fer sure on it.

IIIIIII start with a RE-OPEN OF THE LEFT SIDE, and I visually
CONFIRM that the Timing is indeed off, then
SetTDC, then
align ALL INDICATORS (SilverChainLinkIndicators/SprocketIndicators),
and then
Re-Set Idler Shaft correctly.
I'm just starting in on my Clymer and it seems pretty straight-forward really,
even if NewToMe and therefore daunting, specially since I'm 'on such a dadburn roll'…
{Mom calls it "SnakeBitten"..}

THEN…
I Drill out ShearedWoodruffKey (and the rest of it just falls out as a soft metal, lead?), then
CAREFULLY Replace the Key (already got one), then
Clean up the AlternatorRotor at the RotorWoodruffKeySlot as it was very slightly marred by the Key on a 90degree face and on one-side-only (the RotorShaft looks PERFECT thank god).
I'd apply some Careful/Light/Judicious FileWork to merely clean-up that RotorKeySlot,
and then QUADRUPLE-CHECK THE PROPER RE-FITMENT OF IT ALL, and finally
Seal her up, and drive away lucky… and

then

say a few Prayers.
WHAAAAA?!

Prayers…

that there's no damage to the…

fill _ in _ the _ damn_blank_ here_YO,

ValvesSpringsColletsRetainers and I'm sure MUCHmore that I’m not aware of!!!!!
DAGnabbit!
I'm actually concerned I might have to replace the Rotor, $543 at Dealer, muchMuchMUCH less at Bob's Salvage, local MC GraveYard. Hope I DON'T have to though! BTW, Rotor looks perfect (no marring).

Got 3 TestRides I'm sure were under only slight power, less than, saaay 3K RPM at no more 'n 200 feet at a time.

I think I F'd up the Timing to create the Key Shear I'm afraid…
WhaddaYouGuysThink?

Will that sheared Key make those kindsa EXORCIST sounds I HEARD THAT DAY?

Pic of Sheared Key



Since I am the idiot that done got me into this mess it occurs to me THIS TIME to maybe consult outside of JUST ME AND YOUTUBE! I'm NOT looking forward to learning that I've done a RotorReInstall incorrectly somehow (and twice even!). And I think I can see this Project through, even though I'm pretty much beside myself right now?!?!?!?!
I just would like to know more definitively that I'm barking up the (more) right tree or that I should 'get help'. For the Bike I mean...

I know this is a long post but try to see it as my respectful attempt to save those kind enough to respond some of that precious time by making their responses not have to be so lengthy because someone like me left outta buncha important info as so often happens in cases like these. I’m sure I'll miss something too though…

RESPONSES???

"Take it all down again, Craig, Check/Reset Timing, Ride on",
or
"Yep, Craig, you got it all about right, but be careful when you 'do this one thing' ",
or
"Double check and trawl for more loose pieces in that 'Sump/Transmission'; that could be the sound culprit",
or
"Get me a Pic of that 'slightly damaged Rotor when you Open her back up… you may not be ABLE to repair it",
or
"Call it dawg, send her to a Pro which'd be money very well schpent at this juncture 'cause you're in BIG trouble Bro."


Hopefully I'm just panicking like a ninny just thinking I'm in over my head right now,
but I doubt it…

Thanks SportsFans… 'really appreciate the expert insights.

Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 05-12-2019 at 07:14 AM. Reason: Fixed non-working video links
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post #2 of 12 Old 05-12-2019, 07:35 AM
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It's early, I'm cranky, I have a headache, and I haven't had any coffee. So just a short post.

Your chain looks too tight. Way too ****ing tight. Loosen the chain so that it has enough slack so that the chain can be lifted to touch the swing arm just aft of the chain slider. And don't ever do two things at once. Tight chains will make all sorts of noise. Just stop it.

Now then, the idler shaft cannot affect the balancer timing because the idler gear spins freely on the shaft. The shaft serves only to bear the idler gear and, acting as an eccentric, tighten the chain.

The key is magnetic. I'm not even sure where someone would find a non-ferocious Woodruff key that would fit in there, nor why they would put it in. That's silly talk. Just stop it.

It didn't shear, you smooshed it. It should have made all sorts of horrid noises on start-up. If you have gone back in and corrected that with a new key, simply verify the valve timing by inspecting the marks on the cam gears. With the engine at TDC the arrows should point forward and be parallel with the top of the head. They won't be perfectly parallel but should be within half a tooth or so of parallel. If they are so, don't worry about the valve timing. Just stop it.

What I would like to hear back is that you have the shiny new drive chain properly adjusted with plenty of slack and there is still a horrible and depressing noise. Then we can ask the smart kids.
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“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


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post #3 of 12 Old 05-12-2019, 11:11 AM
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"Call it dawg, send her to a Pro which'd be money very well schpent at this juncture 'cause you're in BIG trouble Bro."

Without intending to appear judgemental, it appears that you have taken a relatively simple job and created (a potential disaster).

Your description of events does not inspire confidence.

It would be my desire to not see a fellow rider without a running machine just as the weather is starting to turn.

My advice would be to get another set of eyes on things. Either a pro or a fellow KLR guy that has some experience with the doo and also valve timing.

Two sets of eyes (on site and seeing things first hand) would be a lot better than pictures in a forum.

And as previously stated, that chain is WAY too tight. And that alone causes a host of issues.

Best of luck.
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post #4 of 12 Old 05-12-2019, 03:17 PM Thread Starter
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Wow, so I'm not even close.

Wow, so I'm not even close...
and I didn't expect THAT, not really!
GREAT Posts, thanks for taking the time Fellas.
'Funny thing about Truth, but I feel even WORSE now...

SO!

TS says, "Your chain looks too tight".
I'm confirming that as not correct; that photo has the Bike on a Stand and shows 'Chain too tight' but I assure you it is at proper adjustment. 1st TestRide after Doo install had Chain a-bit-too-tight and final adjustment to that did NOT clear the Noise. I'm not saying the noise ain't coming from there although I did a thorough visual check of the Chain/Sprockets for clearance/alignment… I already don't think that an issue.

TS says, "The key is magnetic".
I assure you, they Key I found in my Motor was not magnetic (DPO replaced his with one from HomeDepot or Ace??? Not likely since Doo wasn't 'done', and I am at a loss on this one. I will triple-check when the old one comes out but I remember not being able to 'fish out' the Key w/ my MagneticPickUpTool from the BlackHole it fell into. I did just confirm that my NEW ONE from the Dealer is INDEED MAGNETIC. I’m not sure what bearing that fact has on things other'n showing I absolutely don't know much 'bout Motors.

TS says,”It didn't shear, you smooshed it".
So then I did THAT on re-assembly by not properly fitting the Rotor to the Shaft such that the RotorKeySlot was properly 'around' the Key instead of 'on' the Key, resulting in a 'smush'?
Also, could I have slipped the RotorWrench while torqueing down the RotorBolt allowing the originally properly lined up on the Shaft Rotor to 'adjust' to smush the key though unbeknownst to me at the time?

Yes, I'll be looking at the TimingMarksEtc to confirm that I very likely did mistakenly adjust it; getting up on my Clymer now and thanks for the additional notes.

TS says, "What I would like to hear back is that you have the shiny new drive chain properly adjusted with plenty of slack and there is still a horrible and depressing noise".
I’m confirming a properly adjusted/aligned Chain now folks… it's adjusted correctly as though the Videos sound like Chain issues, I honestly feel it is not the Noise. Buuuuut, what do I know.
BTW, TS, Changing 2 things at once is never a good idea and I shoulda known better here. I knew Chain/Sprockets were toast (2.5 - 3" slack at ChainGuardStrap on SwingArm, rotate Tire half-turn, 0" slack... Chain was heavily damaged).

____


And Mr. Z says, "Call it dawg, send her to a Pro which'd be money very well schpent at this juncture 'cause you're in BIG trouble Bro."
HE also said, "Without intending to appear judgmental, it appears that you have taken a relatively simple job and created (a potential disaster)".
Yes indeedy-doo, that is why I am here… DESPITE my embarrassment/disappointment.

Mr. Z says, "My advice would be to get another set of eyes on things. Either a pro or a fellow KLR guy that has some experience with the doo and also valve timing".
I am intending that as a result of your and TS responses… it appears I'm in trouble and I think I just confirmed that I am in over my head. Hopefully CraigsList or a Shop has a Mechanic that knows KLR and could do some ShadeTreeWork as I can't afford even our local MC Shop with it's pricing scribbled out on a white board. I sure hope I don't have to load her in my Truck and take her down there for 'Diagnosis'… OUCH!

'Not touching the Bike 'til I get a little more clear on things, in case indeed someone much smarter 'n me wants to 'hear it for himself'.

Thanks for the time/effort guys… really.
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post #5 of 12 Old 05-12-2019, 07:56 PM
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OK, you're saying that the noise is present when the engine is off, the bike in neutral, and the bike is rolling and the suspension is compressing. At least, that is what it sounds like in the last video.

Yet you say your chain is properly slack and that the only two things you did were the balancer lever and the drive chain.

Nothing in the engine makes noise when the engine isn't running or being turned over. Your engine sounds OK when the bike is not moving, at least in the last video.

If you were to take the bike out in the street and push it up to coasting speed, then get on it and jounce it up and down, would it make those horrible and depressing noises?

Tom [email protected]

“If I wasn't hard, I wouldn't be alive. If I couldn't ever be gentle, I wouldn't deserve to be alive.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


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post #6 of 12 Old 05-12-2019, 09:13 PM
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klrcraig, I don't have enough time to read all the gobblty- gook that you wrote.

The first video sounds 100% Normal!

In the pic of your new pride & joy chain and sprockets, I have to ask, WHERE (the) 'F' is the rubber chain slider which protects the swingarm?
And that drive chain is WAY too Fricking TIGHT!
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Last edited by pdwestman; 05-13-2019 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Where the F
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post #7 of 12 Old 05-12-2019, 09:31 PM Thread Starter
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Quote from my OriginalPost here:
"1. After just doing my Doo I have a NewDamnMystery Engine sound that shows up under power in Gear,
and in Neutral and on Suspension Compression (driveway threshold bump & leaning on turns). "

That statement above should read:
"In Gear" in place of "Neutral"… I learned that during construction of the original ThreadPost but forgot to change the Narrative,
apologies as I certainly know, GIGO GarbageInGarbageOut.

So

Ignition Off, Clutch In, In Gear… coasting and the sound is present at threshold bump and LTurn into DriveWay LeanIn. My 2 MotorVids illustrate one of Ignition On and one Off.

I also get the BadNoise UnderPower in SlowSpeed leaning-in-turn(s) and even sometimes in strait-away at the only slightly higher revs.
I ONLY learned that after reviewing/trimming the original Video… and forgot to adjust my Narrative; my apologies for misleading with wrong info... 'know that wastes time/effort.

So yes, something was turning inside at all times (even with Clutch In, right?)???

"Yet you say your chain is properly slack and that the only two things you did were the balancer lever and the drive chain."
… well, you mean along with LIKELY??? slipping the BalancerChain when it fell off the IdlerArm, (though I thought I just learned it's not tied to that function), AAAND Squishing the WoodruffKey and marring a TinyBit I hope the RotorKeySlot... so, yeh, I guess not THAT much else.

"If you were to take the bike out in the street and push it up to coasting speed, then get on it and jounce it up and down, would it make those horrible and depressing noises?"
Will take it off the stand and check that when I get home thanks TS!
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post #8 of 12 Old 05-12-2019, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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PDW:
I THOUGHT SO TOOOOO,
MOTOR SOUNDED PERF ON INITIAL RESTART,
and I would love to find out I misidentified the SoundSource and it's:
RearWheelBearing (even if 2K miles old),
or SwingArm or Linkage or improper Chain/Sprocket Install...
TS is walking me down a path and am happy to cooperate;
thanks for chiming in.
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post #9 of 12 Old 05-12-2019, 10:54 PM
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Maybe one thing at a time.

So far 3 people have said very loudly that your chain is way too tight.

And believe me, I have about 25% of the knowledge of the other posters. If I'm lucky and on a good day.

Yet you have responded that it is not too tight.

You have listed a variety of other things, like wheel bearings (only 2000 miles old) etc etc etc.

Most of those things could be caused or aggravated by that chain tension.

You also mentioned a clymer book.

Me being the least skilled one here, my humble recommendation is that you find the chapter on chain tension, start at the beginning and follow it to the letter.

Then report back.
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Last edited by MrZappo; 05-13-2019 at 08:31 AM.
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post #10 of 12 Old 05-13-2019, 10:07 AM
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....keeping in mind that the "tight side" of acceptable in the manual is too tight. From my "Top New KLR Owner Mistakes" list;


- 2) Chain tension: many owners and some shops overtighten the KLR's drive chain; due to the long travel suspension and geometry the KLR needs more slack than other bikes people may be used to. If the chain is too tight you risk damaging the countershaft seal and bearing as well as possibly the wheel bearings along with premature wear of the drive chain and sprockets. Quick check; with the bike on the sidestand, you should be able to touch the chain to the bottom rearmost portion of the chain slipper but not the metal swingarm itself.


...the longer version is to remove the shock linkage or compress the suspension to the point when the CS sprocket, front swingarm pivot bolt and rear axle are in line and then verify that there is still some slack at that point.


Dave
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