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Seeking Higher Performance from a Gen 1, ?'s

13K views 78 replies 11 participants last post by  Kuutio 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hello, just popped to this forum :)
Looking for info on what i should do, currently i have 87 klr 650 and if i keep the bike i would love to get tad more power out of it. I was thinking of 705+ big bore kits but i think i would need to source the head from US and i live in Finland. So pretty much the question is should i just go with something like 685 and maybe cams and little porting or what. I dont know how much exactly the elephant makes to wheels but if internet provides right data it would be around 30-34hp rear and i would like to reach that 40hp mark but still biggest performance upgrade for me is to get fit :p but yeh justa asking others opinion to this age old question.

Thanks in advance and hello from newbie on forum.
 
#2 ·
The 1995 & earlier cylinder liners are TOO Thin at the base to be safely overbore to any thing beyond 661cc. 1996 & newer cylinders (with thicker liners) will fit our OLD engines and can be safely overbored to 692cc.
The most popular overbore size for 1996 & up cylinders is 685cc, which is 2.5mm over standard & still allows one additional oversize if ever the need be.

To go over 692cc, ones needs a 1996 & up cylinder and then have an even thicker cylinder sleeve installed into it After enlarging its opening and clearancing the water jacket around it! More parts, more labor, more money, not really worth it to most people.

Due to parts access and possibly dependant upon available higher octane fuel, like 95 MON, a Wossener 11:1 compression piston kit, in 101.0mm size & proper cylinder head porting and valve seat re-conditioning and opening up the top of the air filter box may be just the ticket for more power at a reasonable price in your homeland.

Even the stock 651cc engine can make 40+ HP with proper attention to details, as seen here, (click on the graphs) https://www.klrchris.com/ (Also click on any BOLDED items.) like air box mod

A few more mods gets a few more HP, https://www.klrchris.com/klr650-small-port-head/

klrchris had to of built his 1st set of the adjustable camshaft gears earlier in this project or for another customers bike, by the HP readings in this section.
https://www.klrchris.com/klr650-adjustable-cam-gear/
With sprocket cores exchanged, they are quite affordable and probably a wiser & cheaper single item purchase than a loud pipe, imo. But shipping cores from Finland may not be justifiable.


Of course it would be a complete waste of time, energy & money to allow a couple parts worth less than $50 USD to destroy a rebuilt engine. Are you aware of the engine Balancer Chain adjuster & spring issues? AKA the Doo-Hickey.
Here is a complete expose-ay with videos, https://www.souperdoo.com/stuff that i think about/doohickey

Have FUN and looking forward to reading about your rebuild in these pages. :)
 
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#4 · (Edited)
Yes, i still need to order new doohickey, checked the old already since i had to change gaskets, inner side from flywheel was broken. The spring on the tensioner is rly a joke :D

Edit: also i have read a lot about the subject but i like to gather opinions :)
2nd edit: i thought i would add that i have thrown the airbox away already and have giant airfilter in place, but i need to find new muffler, yes, it does flow great, but it flows so great that i can be heard to the other side of town :D

3rd edit: i just keep getting more stuff on my head, do you think is it worth it to get bigger front end on the bike or just better stuff inside those small tubes. I have seen both and people say both are good options but what do you think. I like to have pretty stiff ride so i cant but hate the suspension at the moment. Thats propably first thing i want to change and maybe new wheels since i want to turn it into supermoto rather than traveler but still keep the big tank for possible trips.
 
#19 ·
Yes, i still need to order new doohickey, checked the old already since i had to change gaskets, inner side from flywheel was broken. The spring on the tensioner is rly a joke :D
i will propably order the doohickey soonish, the old one is still intact and didnt see any damages on it, the spring like said was a joke tho :D

Edit: also i havent read about the sv650 brake upgrade but what i understood its just basic caliper relocation bracket stuff ? also is there any easy way to put 320mm rotor to its place on the hub without too much headache, havent googled this subject yet :)
The original 1984-1986 KLR600 and 1987-199? KLR650 oem doo-hickey extension spring was intended to Only remove the slack from the balancer chain system, not Tension It.
The problems started because of LACK of proper information in the owners manuals & service manuals (which people don't read anyways) which should have instructed the mechanics to turn the engine CCW to the TDC assembly point to get the chain slack & balance weights on the proper side, for the slack to be removed. (We used to only adjust our Manual Cam Chain tensioners at one specific point of crankshaft rotation, on other engines. Usually TDC of #1 cylinder for multi-cylinder engines.)

If this was not done & it usually wasn't by most, with the weights hanging on the wrong side of the system an attempted adjustment would introduce More slack into the system, instead of removing slack, because of the very light, early Gen1 springs.
Yes it is/was so small & light that a broken early Gen1 spring can pass OUT of the 12mm oil drain plug hole!


As to the 320mm brake disc, most reputable companies that sell them also sell a caliper re-location Bracket to operate perfectly with the standard single piston caliper. Works great for most of us slower Dual-Sport style riders and you can still up-grade to an SV650 caliper & bracket later.
https://www.happy-trail.com/find-your-bike/kawasaki/klr650a-87-07/brakes.html
 
#5 ·
Ditto on Paul's comments on the power issue, if the bike runs well and doesn't burn oil, I'd do the usual mods (KLX jet kit, air filter, snorkle-ectomy and/or L mod, silencer of choice) which gets you to 37hp or so.... If it needs a rebuild, the 685 will get you another 2-4 but you'll need a post-'96 cylinder. porting, cams, etc. etc. can boost power but it quickly becomes a point of diminishing returns IMO.

On the suspension, the stock 39mm tubes aren't that big compared to more modern offerings, but that isn't that important IMO; the bigger issue is the damper rod setup and it's very poor damping curve....coupled with the stock Gen1's inadequate springrate. I recommend Cogent's DDC kit https://www.motocd.com/product/ddc-complete-package/ which completely transforms the fork action. Second choice would be Racetech's Cartridge Emulators and springs but they take more work to install.....there are other options but it goes downhill from there.

Plenty of people have done KLR fork swaps but there are many issues to consider and it isn't easy or cheap; with the DDC kits, I am very pleased with the front suspension functionality on my Gen1's. For a Supermoto, I'd consider adding a fork brace (Eaglemike's is my recommendation)

Cheers,
Dave
 
#6 ·
an older post I made on the KLR fork swap issue:

Several things, the biggest is a new front wheel/hub and brake system. As I told you in that other thread, there is no free ride and the USD fork conversion has it's own set of issues to deal with.... Not saying there isn't an allure to it just that there are good reasons more folks don't do it. When I did the math prior to making the decision to stick with the stock forks and go with Cogent's DDC's, my total came to $2,000 - $2,500 for the USD fork conversion vs. about $350.00 and less than an hour for the Cogent stuff.

After the additional expense, fork rebuilding, respringing, revalving, dealing with the rear suspension travel issue, gauge cluster, speedo, turning radius issues......you still have a smaller hub with a smaller axle, smaller bearings and when compared to the SV caliper 320mm rotor mod, a much smaller brake caliper, pad and rotor......all of which are fine for MX use and less fine for dual sport use.

There is no doubt as to the superiority of the modern MX fork.....but unless you have it resprung and revalved properly, it isn't going to work as good as a set of DDC's and springs in the stock forks.......and even if you do those things, the rest of the KLR isn't up to making full use of them anyhow.

I'm just making you aware of all the issues; if you still want to do it after all that, knock yourself out.
 
#7 · (Edited)
With (a) 5th posting, this thread should move into the 'Recent Discussions' column and you will get better answers about your desired suspension action & steering precision while on hard-pack or asphalt highways from guys like Maverick9611. Dave Pelletier is more of an off-highway guy, but I'm sure his bikes would still hustle down a twisty piece of asphalt even on knobby tires and pots in gravel roads would just almost disappear.

I hope that you enjoy Exploring all sections of the klrchris and souperdoo sites, they are a treasure trove of KLR information.

ps, I really don't Type. And Dave has already found this. :)
 
#10 ·
Thanks; yes my usage and experience is heavily offroad biased. That said, my bike do very well on pavement though they aren't optimised for it and several people that run mainly pavement have posted similar positive experience with the Cogent upgrades - ultimately good suspension is good everywhere though it may be more noticeable offroad.

Dave
 
#12 · (Edited)
You can change the title if you want and btw dont take me too seriously since i sometimes might ask few stupid questions :) im mostly asking opinions but few advices are always welcome. Might be that i dont touch the cylinder but do head and maybe cams, only time will show. I propably will order wheels from US in month or two since i would need to rebuild these ones anyway and need new rubbers etc. Kinda sad that these arent that common bikes around here. Really hard to find used parts, pretty much just new parts are available here and i cant find even new wheels for this one and rebuilding these to 17inch size would cost almost the same as i would order wheels from US. I still have a lot to do before i can really do any performance upgrades. And btw i can do pretty much everything that requires hands so it isnt that big of a problem, also i know someone who has machining stuff so i could make new triples propably but i think i will just rebuild this front end with better springs and damping stuff. I think i could bench this thing after i get it ready for summer so i have baseline and know what i want from it really. But imma continue working on the bike for lil more time and prob post lil more of my stupid questions when i get back to pc :)
 
#13 ·
... i sometimes might ask few stupid questions :) ...
While it is not universally true, I will observe that there are seldom stupid questions. Plenty of times there are stupid answers.

You're not asking stupid questions. We'll try not to provide stupid answers ;^).
 
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#15 ·
What would be fun would be to start a thread to collect stupid answers.

If I was a real dick I'd do that.

Oh, wait...
 
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#16 ·
There are as mentioned above a few weak areas that are easy to correct; the balancer lever (doohickey), and for the pre '96 KLR650 motors, the balancer sproclets. These early KLR motors used a spring-loaded impact reducer that is also prone to failure.

I strongly recommend replacing those two items with the balancer sprockets from a '96 or later. Net new pieces from the dealer run about $220 but you can typically get them off ebay ('96 or later) for $30-50.

It seems tedious -but with good maintenance and proper oil levels, even the '87 is capable of 70-100,000 miles.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Currently has 40k in clock but i doubt thats all of it :p tho i did manage to snatch new muffler for the bike, found yoshimura rs-3 for good price since i dont like that people from other side of town know where im heading :D checking valves this week and so on and i will propably order the doohickey soonish, the old one is still intact and didnt see any damages on it, the spring like said was a joke tho :D

Edit: also i havent read about the sv650 brake upgrade but what i understood its just basic caliper relocation bracket stuff ? also is there any easy way to put 320mm rotor to its place on the hub without too much headache, havent googled this subject yet :)
 
#21 ·
The oem extension spring (and the old EM extension springs) pull on the little lever, which still leaves some 'slack' between the shaft & the doo. The EM Doo-Hickey & Torsion Spring is the BEST Way to go.
You REALLY should go back and read & view the Souperdoo link about the doo-hickeys.

The rear suspension can only be modified x amount by rising links before parts interfere with each other. Eagle Mike has already designed & built the appropriate length of Rising Links. Have you reviewed that link, in-depth?
 
#22 ·
I was just thinking does the em one pull it enough but i guess ill go with the torsion one and prolly get the tool for the not flywheel but u know what i mean for this time. Might have been pain in the buttocks last time when i had to tighten the thingy back :) and yes but those propably arent much longer and propably i could just ask for someone for the length and build one, i think its more of a question do i want to just throw money at it or save few pennies and do it myself. Might be that i just order one so i dont need to tinker with that bit since i have other things to do also. And just to add i know the torsion spring is pretty much a must in the doohickey but just had second thought so i wouldnt need to start drilling holes that take few seconds to measure and few more seconds to drill :D





 
#25 ·
Sorry that I got interrupted on my last posting.

I was going to add that the EM Torsion Spring pulls on the EM Doo itself. Therefore the torsion spring pulls All of the slack out of the entire system. So definitely Better!
But I still recommend turning the engine CCW to TDC before allowing a doo-hickey adjustment.

But if you would please view this you will understand IT. https://www.souperdoo.com/stuff that i think about/doohickey

Many people have heated and bent their own 32mm spanner wrench and used a 22mm x 1.5mm thread pitch wheel lug bolt from heavy trucks for the puller bolt.
 
#26 ·
im also aware of this too :) not that bad of a job to do, but either way i need to get spanner to heat first :) i actually made puller from hard bolt since i bought puller(knew i could just go and buy a bolt) but i was sold 20mm(didnt check the hole and should have :) ) so it was too small and yeh. Oh and btw i do have read some stuff on the other klr forum before it got fully subscription based so i know few things but thats some time ago.
Also dont know if its right or wrong thing to do but i did take the slack off by hand when doing the gasket and i dont mean i used every holy power and muscle to tighten the chain but u know, give it a litle room :)

 
#27 ·
Manual tensioning of a non-functional tensioning system is perfectly acceptable, and preferred, rather than running a Loose System.
A loose system accelerates wear of the balancer chain. Not a 'good thing' to be happening.
 
#30 ·
apparently i wasnt quick enough in deleting :p thanks anyways tho, i dont have that much experience with carburetors but enough so i get the engine running around without going too lean or rich :D but i might say wrong here since i dont have clean picture of carburetor in my mind right now, doesnt the needle only affect low/mid rpm and not in WOT ? since isnt main jet doing that. And pilot jet was for low end too if im not mistaken, ill prolly just google some basic carburetor stuff so i get my mind refreshed and maybe remember something hehe
 
#31 ·
The needle meters the main jet, so it certainly controls WOT. It's the only thing controlling the mixture from about half throttle to WOT. The idle circuit has influence up to about half throttle.

Watch this video:


Look at this picture:


Drink this beer:
 
#32 ·
The pilot jet size affects everything from Idle to RED-Line. The mid-range needle effects everything from 2000-7000 rpm. The main jet primarily effects from 6000-7500 rpm.
 
#34 · (Edited)
thanks for the beer hehe, does make sense after watching that vid :) havent had to touch the carb for like a year since i jetted it for my pipe and intake. Only for cleaning. Tho i propably need to change the jetting again since i have new muffler coming but i doubt it would change much since the new muffler can only be more restrictive than my current one :D
 
#35 ·
I kinda know the answer to this one but just gonna throw it anyways, i was just rethinking powerbomb header, is it worth it? i know that usually people swap the newer header to the old ones which apparently flows better ? havent seen much of dyno sheets of the powerbomb but klrchris ones so does it get more torque/power out compared to the newer header if you fit for example head with some work in it and cams since we are talking about flow.:19:

Lil edit: also i do know that some engines dont like that header
 
#36 ·
I've never seen one dyno test proving the powerbomb does anything on the KLR. Since a good silencer adds a miniscule amount of power to a stock KLR engine with the usual airbox and jetting mods, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the PB adds less than 1hp....if anything. Maybe on a highly modified engine, that number would grow to slightly more than nothing..... I'm happy to revise my opinion upon receipt of any actual proof but I doubt there will ever be any. One thing is certain; purchasing a PB header for you KLR is very poor bang for the buck.

Dave
 
#38 ·
I would not argue that the idle circuit delivers fuel to redline, but I would argue that the amount of fuel that it delivers is small in comparison to the main circuit. A back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests that the main circuit delivers 6 1/2 times the amount of fuel that the idle circuit does at full throttle. That's assuming a 147 jet and a stock needle. A KLX and 140 would be about 6 times.

I tend to like this chart better:


I think the point of either chart is to suggest what to fiddle with to fix problems that can be related to throttle position, assuming that the carb is generally in good fettle and the bike is not on fire.

This came from Vintage Bike Magazine in a discussion of Amal carburetor tuning. As Jason may concur, Amal's are a constantly depressing carburetor made from bits of crumbling pewter the peasants have dug up from abandoned Roman villages. Much levity was had with changing the first consonant in the name. They are a thing of beauty and a joy for never, but they are similar in function to the Keihin in question.
 
#39 ·
Kawasaki left very little on the table as far as performance is concerned with the KLR650.
The very modest gains far outweigh the money spent to get them. Ride it like you stole it and don't look back. If it's performance you want, you need to buy a new bike.
 
#43 ·
On my bike I dynoed it before and after a Powerbomb header install with carb adjustments. The Powerbomb improved mid throttle by about 2/10 of a horsepower and lost peak horsepower by about the same amount. It did make my bike slightly quieter. I have a Staintune muffler that was too loud with the baffle out before the header installation, but after the header installation I now run with no baffle. The stainless steel header goes well with the stainless steel muffler. If you are looking for more power spend your money elsewhere. If your looking to loose weight, have a shiny header that makes your bike a tiny bit quiter, then by all means get and enjoy a Powerbomb.
 
#46 · (Edited)
Dave do you think theres much difference from Kawasakis header alone to the pb. Im thinking the gains are had in muffler. At any rate 20% gain in hp from those mods are very good in grand scheme of things.When you consider a big bore , head porting and cams get you to 50-55 that is very impressive for the investment!!
 
#47 ·
As I've read since 2009 on forums, the 2008 & up Gen 2 exhaust header pipe is as good as, if Not Better than the FMF PowerBomb header.

And I like the looks & heat shielding of the Gen 2 header on my Gen 1 (or any KLR) more than the PowerBombs with skimpy heat shield.
 
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#49 · (Edited)
To Steve,
At the time of my last dyno it was a 651, 38+ horsepower. Power mods at that time: Staintune, Powerbomb, KLX kit, modified K&N air filter, and a modified air box. It is a 692 now. There was a shop in Dallas that did dyno runs for $50.00. The shop was hit by a tornado late last year and I don't know if the owner rebuilt. It was a cost effective way for me to dial in the air/fuel mixture. The MC mod was also done before that dyno.
 
#50 · (Edited)
well that was a good time to check valves and i kinda want to be wrong somehow but i have zero clearance on my intake side #2(right) valve and 1#(left) had 0.05 clearance. Now has something gone wrong in the engine or in my way of checking valve or is it possible for the valve to knock its way so high? I cant even find shim so small to fit in there, i need 2mm shim but smallest i can find is 2.1mm and if im not wrong the shim was 29mm. And just to add exhaust side was 0.2 each. Btw i have had this bike for like 1 year so cant know what kind of trashing the other owners have taken it thru but i can say the bike has had hella not fun time.

Edit: Found some shims after looking outside of my country, gonna order some from germany, dunno how good or bad they are but holy duck do these small metallic circles cost a lot for their size.
 
#52 ·
lets say it this way, in anyway i could check it i couldnt get .05 feeler under :/ did check at tdc at (sry mind broke now its 3am currenntly lol) thee intake cam directed at tail fo bike and exhaust side directed to front, not at each other lol
 
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