Push Starting - Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum
2008+ KLR650 Wrenching & Mod Questions For repair, maintaining or modifying discussions related to the newly updated 2008 and beyond, Generation 2 KLR650 Motorcycle.

 
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Old 08-03-2013, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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Push Starting

It pains me that I went to the trouble to disable the safety interlocks so that my '08 could be push started only to find out later it cant be done on a gen II with a completely dead battery. Grrrr, why else would I ever want to push start?

Can this be done on a gen II ? How? What parts would be needed?

I have often released the "smoke" contained in an electrical system due to my lack of expertise in the field. Any help from the collective will be much appreciated.

Gray-haired riders don’t get that way from pure luck.

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Old 08-03-2013, 06:45 PM
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Yikes!

That would mean a conversion to the CDI ignition system, which would mean the modules and the left side cover and all it's guts.

Technically possible, but I'd be skeered to do it.

I'd sooner carry a small solar panel and get enough charge on the battery so I could push it. And set up a circuit to kill the lights when you don't need them and kill the lights when you hit the starter. All that just to try and avoid the dead battery event.

T

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“Neither of the two people in the room paid any attention to the way I came in, although only one of them was dead.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


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Old 08-03-2013, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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Well dayum, I was hoping just the CDI conversion and some nip and tuck. Are you saying the stator would have to be gen I also?

Gray-haired riders don’t get that way from pure luck.

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Old 08-03-2013, 08:29 PM
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Yes, I think so.

Damocles is the expert on this stuff.

T

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“Neither of the two people in the room paid any attention to the way I came in, although only one of them was dead.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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I've never seen a write-up about this so I guess it would be a reverse engineering sort of thing.

I could compare the schematics but that would be akin to me throwing some chicken bones down on the shop floor and trying to glean some useful information from those also.

I'm confident it can be done, not so sure if it should be done.

The reason I want to do this is the reason I keep the KLR. Short of a horse I want something I can ride off into the Zombie Apocalypse....(Don tinfoil hats now).

Gray-haired riders don’t get that way from pure luck.

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Old 08-04-2013, 06:12 AM
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No expertise claimed, but I'll share my perhaps flawed concept of the respective ignition systems by Generations.

CAVEAT: Some technical discussion may follow (those offended by same may now averet their eyes).

A significant difference exists between the Generation 1 and the Generation 2 stators:

1. The older stator provides two separate sources of electric power; one, three-phase alternating current for charging the battery (routed to the rectifier/regulator for that purpose), and a separate alternating current power routed to the "igniter" (or Capacitive Discharge Ignition (CDI)) module.

2. The Generation 2 stator provides only three-phase alternating current power to the rectifier/regulator; the latter-day ignition is powered by 12-volt DC battery voltgage. (And, Kawasaki's own specifications notwithstanding, the Generation 2 KLRs don't have no stinkin' Capacitive Discharge Ignitions (CDIs); their ignitions are "Inductive Discharge Ignitions," or as Kawasaki marketing has referred to the design, "Fully-Transistorized Breakerless Ignition (FTBI).")

Some operational consequences of the two designs:

1. The Generation 1 can be bump-started, independent of the condition of its battery; in fact, even in the ABSENCE of a battery, because its ignition is powered from the exciter coils of the stator, NOT the battery.

2. The Generation 2 MAY be bump-started, but . . . if the battery is LOW, the stator must overcome the charging burden of the battery, PLUS provide enough juice to fire the ignition. Significance: You might have to push the bike PRETTY FAST to get it to fire, if the battery's really, REALLY dead.

Is changing ignition systems/components INTER-GENERATIONALLY possible/practical?

A CDI implant on a Generation 2 would require a Generation 1 stator, a CDI igniter, and probably a Generation 1 ignition coil (the electrical specifications of the newer and older ignition coils vary greatly, the CDI coil functions as a "transformer," the Generation 2 coil more as an inductor).

So, what with the parts scrounging, wiring alterations, and probably some annoying difficulties/gremlins I haven't even thought of, might be better to just, "Dance with the one who brung you."

Summarizing, a Generation 1 can always be bump-started, regardless of the condition of its battery; a Generation 2 MAY be bump-started, provided the "bump" spins up the rotor sufficiently to overcome the load of the battery and additionally produce enough power to fire the ignition coil.

DISCLAIMER: My perceptions and opinions only above; corrections and clarifications welcomed, as always!

Last edited by Damocles; 08-04-2013 at 06:23 AM.
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:14 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
So, what with the parts scrounging, wiring alterations, and probably some annoying difficulties/gremlins I haven't even thought of, might be better to just, "Dance with the one who brung you."
Thanks for the explanation D. I thought it may to come down to that.

Thinking back on disabling the interlocks, was that even necessary to bump start? Or did that just enable the starter to operate under any condition?

Gray-haired riders don’t get that way from pure luck.

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Old 08-04-2013, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flash View Post
Thanks for the explanation D. I thought it may to come down to that.

Thinking back on disabling the interlocks, was that even necessary to bump start? Or did that just enable the starter to operate under any condition?
The latter, I should think, flash!

With the ignition ON, and with the safety switches either in the GO condition or bypassed (as you've done), the success of a bump start depends upon its vigor, relative to the battery condition (IMHO).

Just for kicks; with ignition switch ON, roll 'er down a hill, in maybe 3d gear; pop the clutch and see what happens!
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:12 AM
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Have a Gen 2 and had a really bad battery one time, could not even get get a sound from the starting motor, and was able to keep "bump-starting" it without too much difficulty while I waited for the new battery to arrive....

Also I guess that counted as some exercise....
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
No expertise claimed, but I'll share my perhaps flawed concept of the respective ignition systems by Generations.

CAVEAT: Some technical discussion may follow (those offended by same may now averet their eyes).

A significant difference exists between the Generation 1 and the Generation 2 stators:

1. The older stator provides two separate sources of electric power; one, three-phase alternating current for charging the battery (routed to the rectifier/regulator for that purpose), and a separate alternating current power routed to the "igniter" (or Capacitive Discharge Ignition (CDI)) module.

2. The Generation 2 stator provides only three-phase alternating current power to the rectifier/regulator; the latter-day ignition is powered by 12-volt DC battery voltgage. (And, Kawasaki's own specifications notwithstanding, the Generation 2 KLRs don't have no stinkin' Capacitive Discharge Ignitions (CDIs); their ignitions are "Inductive Discharge Ignitions," or as Kawasaki marketing has referred to the design, "Fully-Transistorized Breakerless Ignition (FTBI).")

Some operational consequences of the two designs:

1. The Generation 1 can be bump-started, independent of the condition of its battery; in fact, even in the ABSENCE of a battery, because its ignition is powered from the exciter coils of the stator, NOT the battery.

2. The Generation 2 MAY be bump-started, but . . . if the battery is LOW, the stator must overcome the charging burden of the battery, PLUS provide enough juice to fire the ignition. Significance: You might have to push the bike PRETTY FAST to get it to fire, if the battery's really, REALLY dead.

Is changing ignition systems/components INTER-GENERATIONALLY possible/practical?

A CDI implant on a Generation 2 would require a Generation 1 stator, a CDI igniter, and probably a Generation 1 ignition coil (the electrical specifications of the newer and older ignition coils vary greatly, the CDI coil functions as a "transformer," the Generation 2 coil more as an inductor).

So, what with the parts scrounging, wiring alterations, and probably some annoying difficulties/gremlins I haven't even thought of, might be better to just, "Dance with the one who brung you."

Summarizing, a Generation 1 can always be bump-started, regardless of the condition of its battery; a Generation 2 MAY be bump-started, provided the "bump" spins up the rotor sufficiently to overcome the load of the battery and additionally produce enough power to fire the ignition coil.

DISCLAIMER: My perceptions and opinions only above; corrections and clarifications welcomed, as always!
An excellent recap, Damocles. Clear and concise.

I have always wondered what the advantage to the Gen2 system was and why Kawasaki changed. It seemed like a step backwards, to me.

T

Tom [email protected]

“Neither of the two people in the room paid any attention to the way I came in, although only one of them was dead.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.
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