Oil Pressure Experiments - 2009 KLR650 - Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum
2008+ KLR650 Wrenching & Mod Questions For repair, maintaining or modifying discussions related to the newly updated 2008 and beyond, Generation 2 KLR650 Motorcycle.

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post #1 of 471 Old 08-19-2014, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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Oil Pressure Experiments - 2009 KLR650

Guys, thank you all so much for the work you've done to date. It's a great amount of knowledge, experience, testing, and data. Really quite impressive.

A question for those at the edge of discovery on this oil delivery/efficiency thread...

I've read a large deal about enlarging the orifice on the banjo bolts... but how effective is this when continuing to use a oil delivery line of such a small diameter and significant length and multiple bends? Won't the oil tube need to be larger at some point so that the oil flow isn't restricted by the small diameter of the line?

Just trying to think through all of this along with the rest.

Thanks for any thoughts.
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post #2 of 471 Old 08-20-2014, 05:21 PM
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Motosapien -

Thanks for joining in, and you bring up a good question and thought.

We have to briefly revisit the intent of all this - Paul's theory (if I may state it) is that there's too much oil for the oil control rings and bleed holes to accommodate, so KLRs burn oil when turning much over 5000rpm. All his work is focused on reducing the amount of oil going up under the piston. Early on, that was done by re-directing the oil to someplace (the transmission and cams) where it would do no harm and might be of some help.

More oil going to the cams is a good thing, but won't save the head of the engine runs out of oil. More oil sent to the transmission is a good thing and may help with the splash lubing of the upper balancer bearing.

Oil was redirected to the transmission and cams by removing the restrictions in the banjo bolts such that the bearing clearances became the control orifices, not the banjo bolts (edit: though, if I have it through my thick head yet, there is still some control at the transmission banjo bolt - only one orifice of .125").

A larger, straighter, oil line could further help with that by reducing turbulence, friction and so on, so let's take a look.

First, the inside diameter of the oil lines is .160". A banjo bolt with .125" cross drilling has a total cross section greater than the oil line.

The oil line is fed from the filter via the passageway and hole shown below:


The area of the .230" hole is .04"^2, while the area of the passage way (.115" x .235") is .03"^2. There's a corresponding passageway in the case that's probably the same, so the total cross-section of the passage way is .06"^2, which is larger than the .230" hole's area.

This is the mating passageway in the case:


I don't have a case to measure, but the matching oil passage looks like it is also .230" diameter. I'm also not able to confirm that the hole that mates to the .315" hole on the clutch cover is truly blind, but the oiling schematic doesn't show it going anywhere.

The banjos look like they could be made to accommodate a line that had a larger inside diameter; how large I don't know. 1/4" i.d. x 3/8" o.d. might be pushing it, but let's assume.

The banjo bolts have a M10 thread and a .160" diameter bore. To safely go to a larger bore would require going up to M12 banjos and (edit) bolts and there is probably room to re-tap the ports to that size.

As a side note, I've installed a sensor in the test port bolt to get oil temperature. That bolt is also M10, and I tapped it M6 to accept the sensor. It makes me a bit nervous, as the difference between the M10 minor diameter and the M6 major diameter is just a millimeter. It will stay in there for testing, but I'm not sure if I'd trust it long-term. I think increasing the bore and cross drill on an M10 banjo might not be a good idea. Better to go bigger.

All in all, quite a bit of work would need to be done, but it is possible.

Tom

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Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 08-20-2014 at 07:40 PM.
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post #3 of 471 Old 08-20-2014, 06:20 PM
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Thanks for restating the scope of this project Tom. Very clear now. Glad you found the relief valves too!!
jj

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post #4 of 471 Old 08-20-2014, 06:58 PM
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Jeff-

If I understand correctly, that's what's going on now. I want to emphasize that I've kind of stated it, above, from my perspective looking back over Paul's journey through this.

Any research that's gone on for a few years is going to have twists and turns in it. And, as one thing leads to another, a discovery of a real difference in how oiling is treated so differently in early versions of the same bike (not to mention other Kawasakis of the same vintages) leads to questions like 'why?'. That, in turn, leads to how to improve oil pressure at the end of the pressure line which leads to newer ideas about oil burning (can I afford to take oil from the crank? Hell, yes, it's built like a two-smoke and they ain't even got oil except for what's in the gas! Probably has too much oil anyway. Hey! Might be why it burns the stuff!). To me it's the sign of a very inquisitive and sharp mind, one that's good at seeing dots and connecting them.

My visit confirmed that and I'm really interested in where this goes. There's so much 'why' and 'how' in this thread! It's sort of 'out there' but who the hell has done anything new to a KLR in the past 10 years? ;^) I'm thankful to Paul for having brought it up and shared. Isn't it nice to have a thought provoking topic other than the 'Standard Six KLR650 Forum Topics'?

You wanna see a relief valve pop off? I know I'm a bit of an odd duck, but this just struck me as funnier than heck. (This is just a stub of a video that might get edited into a larger story. Might not, too.)



Tom

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“She went out slowly. The way she did it hadn’t been learned at business college.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


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Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 08-20-2014 at 07:42 PM.
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post #5 of 471 Old 08-20-2014, 07:46 PM
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Hahahahh!!
So did I ever mention what I did for a living before I became a Machinist?? I was an Industrial Valve Technician specializing in Safety Relief Valves for 17 years!! You should hear that style of valve (ball seated) go off at 25oopsi on air!!

Good job Tom!! You have that one working fine!! On straight oil it won't pop open though. Once it reaches the set point it will open in proportion to the overpressure gradually. More pressure more flow.
Best Regards....justjeff

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Woooo WOOOOO!!!!!

Last edited by justjeff; 08-20-2014 at 07:55 PM.
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post #6 of 471 Old 08-20-2014, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justjeff View Post
...On straight oil it won't pop open though. Once it reaches the set point it will open in proportion to the overpressure gradually. ...
Jeff -

Can you explain that? That manifold is filled with oil, and I understand the valve should remain open if there is a flow of oil at 70psi, and if the pressure is greater that it will open more fully. I can't put flow through it, but the test is valid for the opening point, isn't it?

Are we saying the same thing? I have been a Relief Valve Test Technician for all of about an hour and half. ;^)

Tom

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“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


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Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 08-20-2014 at 08:46 PM.
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post #7 of 471 Old 08-20-2014, 09:08 PM
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Yes Tom you have found the setpressure, the initial opening point. If the pressure were to increase (cold oil start) the valve would open more and relieve more oil keeping the pressure within reasonable/safe limits.

Some oil relief valves on engines open at a much lower pressure and flow all the time. That would be an oil bypass relief. They may open at say 30 and constantly flow keeping the pressure at say 50 and allow no more pressure rise above say 70.

You are getting a pop on your test fixture because you are using a compressible fluid (air) to pressurize the oil in the header.
If you rigged the relief valve to an oil pump of sufficient volume with a manual bypass valve on your header, You could start the pump with bypass open, gradually close the bypass and see the true action of the valve. It would reach the setpoint, open slightly then gradually open more with the increase of pressure as you continue to close the bypass valve.
As is your rig does not have sufficient flow to see the true action of the valve.

What you are doing is fine and I am impressed you got such a good seat seal with such coarse lapping compound. We regularly went to 1000 grit compound lapping just as you did, using a new ball on final assembly.
jj

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post #8 of 471 Old 08-20-2014, 09:30 PM
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I gots coarse and fine Clover valve compound I bought in 1974 for lapping valves on my Corvair...

Dats it.

The oil and ball seemed to seat things in. It leaked a bit with just the fine compound. There was some hilarity the first time it popped like it should. I didn't know about throwing a towel over it.

Tom

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“She went out slowly. The way she did it hadn’t been learned at business college.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


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post #9 of 471 Old 08-20-2014, 10:56 PM
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Bahahahah!!
I was oil testing a 4 inch valve at 2500psi one time and didn't get all the air out of the manifold. The boss wasn't happy about me painting the wall with hydraulic fluid 40 ft away. I'd send you some 800grit but it comes as a dry white powder and I'm not sure about sending it in the mail to you!
What is your household water pressure? More than 70psi? If it is you could flow test the valve that way. Not that you need to. The viscosity difference has no significant effect on the operation of this style of valve but your CARBON STEEL BALLS may RUST so be sure to apply oil after the water.
jj

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Woooo WOOOOO!!!!!

Last edited by justjeff; 08-20-2014 at 11:12 PM.
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post #10 of 471 Old 08-20-2014, 11:19 PM
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And as you're on line you likely saw all my idiot edits right TOM?? You're supposed to be sleeping!
jj

It's not a Tractor....It's a LOCOMOTIVE!! Chugga Chugga
Woooo WOOOOO!!!!!
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