Tom count your balls - Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum
2008+ KLR650 Wrenching & Mod Questions For repair, maintaining or modifying discussions related to the newly updated 2008 and beyond, Generation 2 KLR650 Motorcycle.

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post #1 of 25 Old 02-01-2015, 08:30 PM Thread Starter
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Tom count your balls

Here's a photo of the rear balancer shaft bearing on a friend's 2013 which just got back from Florida, Texas, Arizona and California. The bearing cage came apart on his way to Vancouver Island so the bike is here. I pulled it apart as quickly as possible so as to assess damage before we drive him to the ferry.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u1388xqlwh...aring.jpg?dl=0

Is there anything anyone wants to have confirmed or shown while I'm doing the replacement? (Tom?)

I think this failure should be officially named "The Tom Trauma" in honor of the man who has done the most to publicize the failure.
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post #2 of 25 Old 02-01-2015, 09:19 PM
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Is there any visible damage other than the bearing cage? It doesn't look too bad, but there are balls missing.

"And, I might add, more balls that I have", Tom said roundly.

Please measure the amount of oil in the sump before tearing down.

Take lots of pictures!

Tom

p.s. I'm going to move this to the 2008+ sub forum.

Tom [email protected]

“Neither of the two people in the room paid any attention to the way I came in, although only one of them was dead.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


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post #3 of 25 Old 02-02-2015, 12:44 AM Thread Starter
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The sump was topped exactly to the full line as it was when I changed the oil about 20 minutes running time prior to the event.

He returned from a long loop down the coast then across Texas to Florida and return. He commented that he'd heard a crunch sound some times ago and thought it may have sounded a bit different once in a while while iding. I found a piece of material which looked like a chipped gear tooth which was on the magnetic drain plug & what looked like a small about of steel in the oil filter. He was in a rush to get going so I changed the oil, replaced the rear tire, while he JB Welded some radiator damage. He had bent the fan mount to move the fan further from the radiator which I advised that he correct. A few other small service operations and he was off again only to have it exhibit some loud crunching noises so he pulled into a rest stop and had the bike hauled here.

He had been topping up with oil as it was consuming ...think he said about 2-1/2 litres in 1,000 km while running very fast highway with passenger and maybe 100 pounds of gear. I doubt that he ran it low on oil as he's quite attentive but will ask for more details. Perhaps we can provide come evidence as to the not enough oil to that bearing hypothesis?

Please advise as to any area or aspect of possible investigation. I will need to get it done ASAP but would like to cover as many bases as can. I'm still thinking that this is the third of these bearings with which I've dealt but second one for certain. Too long ago to recall whether the bearing was the primary issue or something discovered in dealing with another issue. I probably warned about worsening memory as one gets older but forget.

In the morning I will investigate further. It looks like the lower part of the outer race is chipped but can't see any other damage at the moment so am optimistic regarding just swapping out the bearing.

I can't recall if the balancer bearing can be withdrawn from the outside or whether have to split the case..... Time to sleep and check the manuals tomorrow.

I think all balls are there although the cage is completely out of the bearing and scattered in pieces.


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Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
Is there any visible damage other than the bearing cage? It doesn't look too bad, but there are balls missing.

"And, I might add, more balls that I have", Tom said roundly.

Please measure the amount of oil in the sump before tearing down.

Take lots of pictures!

Tom

p.s. I'm going to move this to the 2008+ sub forum.
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post #4 of 25 Old 02-02-2015, 01:14 AM
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I think that the standard procedure is to split the cases, but Paul mentioned to me that it may be possible to avoid that. Given the location of the bearing and and the shaft I'd want to have a look at all of the gears and some of those odd recesses in the lower case (to find bits and pieces - see "I am Joe's Crankcase").

Tom

Tom [email protected]

“Neither of the two people in the room paid any attention to the way I came in, although only one of them was dead.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.
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post #5 of 25 Old 02-02-2015, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
I think that the standard procedure is to split the cases, but Paul mentioned to me that it may be possible to avoid that. Given the location of the bearing and and the shaft I'd want to have a look at all of the gears and some of those odd recesses in the lower case (to find bits and pieces - see "I am Joe's Crankcase").

Tom
I've seen barnyard mechanics/welders, weld a pipe to an inner or outer bearing race and extract said bearing from a bore or a shaft in a manner Not approved by any service manual. I can't do it, as I don't know how to weld.

As long as the case does Not have a retainer lip on the outside, it could be possible. But also no way to check R.H. bearing.

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post #6 of 25 Old 02-02-2015, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
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You younger people likely don't experience this very much but don't you hate it when you know that you've done something or seen something but can't recall the details you need? I think that the other(s) KLR rear balancer bearing I've replaced my have been part of replacing other parts including all or most of the engine & transmission bearings. I must have had the cases stripped as have no inkling of pulling that bearing from around the shaft.

Some bike case bearings are pressed in from one side and against a shoulder but these KLR bearings are retained by interference. I'm going to try removing this bearing alone and then to replace. It should be possible to heat the case substantially without risk because the engine typically reaches the boiling point of water under the right conditions. Cooling the bearing is a common practice which works well in encouraging an interference fit so reinstalling should be able to be performed along the lines of the manual's recommendations. I have seen and done, bearing installs without heating/cooling without problems so it's worth pursuing, IME.

Funny how minds work alike, Tom. I slept poorly last night because my brain was constantly sifting memory and options. I'm going to try to displace the shaft in the bearing sufficiently to extract the balls in order to have more access to the races and to avoid dropping into the transmission. One of the options which kept coming to mind was to use my TIG to run a bead or series of beads/spots into the ball groove of the outer race. This shrinks the bearing, often substantially. With the outer race removed, there will be more room to grasp the inner race in order to pull from the shaft.

I think the inner race is a slip fit on the shaft, right?

It will be necessary to have a reaction member when pulling the inner race from the shaft in order to avoid applying strain inside the case.

Will see how we go and report. Might have egg on my face but not going to overload and damage anything so worst case will be to strip the engine. I've done so much of that stuff over the last 55 years of wrenching that it holds little prospect of fun.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pdwestman View Post
I've seen barnyard mechanics/welders, weld a pipe to an inner or outer bearing race and extract said bearing from a bore or a shaft in a manner Not approved by any service manual. I can't do it, as I don't know how to weld.

As long as the case does Not have a retainer lip on the outside, it could be possible. But also no way to check R.H. bearing.
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post #7 of 25 Old 02-02-2015, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Many of us will know of the front balance shaft replacement because someone has snapped off the water pump impeller shaft. A friend sent this link which might be useful to someone although not in this case.

http://www.sgtmarty.com/SgtMarty-Imp...ft-repair.html
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post #8 of 25 Old 02-02-2015, 03:36 PM Thread Starter
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I made a pair of eccentric inserts which fit into the bearing ball races, then turn to lock. Using a 5 pound slide hammer, the bearing will not pull so time to reassess. I'm feeling that doing a freebie repair which requires splitting the cases is no longer something I'm interested in doing so off to get a couple of estimates from shops, then will let him decide.
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post #9 of 25 Old 02-02-2015, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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Can't stand giving up on a problem so think will have a go at it by heating the case (in the bike = hot air guns) + running a bead around the part of the outer ball race which is clear of the balls + hitting the race with cooling spray, then the eccentrics and slide hammer. If it comes out, hard to say if will be able to install the new one but that would be problem #2. Otherwise a friend will do it at his shop by stripping the cases, heating and hydraulic press.

Can anyone recall whether the bearing has to go to the inside to remove? It looks clear to the outside of the bearing bore and absolutely don't recall which way we pushed the bearings when doing them all. Two of my bike tech friends who have been in the business for 25 - 35 years can't advise. Only one has ever opened KLR cases, and that to do crank bearings. Not a bad record for KLR. When I'm looking at vehicles, the best news is when the transmission shops have never seen one apart. :-)

I'd like to offer a solution which avoids opening the cases because that would change the solution hugely for anyone. Labor to do the bearing is $500 - $900 depending on the shop. If it can be changed without pulling then engine then an easy few hours at home so it might be worth switching the bearing as a precaution on older bikes.
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post #10 of 25 Old 02-02-2015, 07:23 PM
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Norm,
Wouldn't tight fitting eccentrics tend to wedge the outer tight-fitting race even tighter into the bore. As well as compress the inner race tight onto the shaft.

I do agree that this repair is well above a 'freebie'. Any which way it is completed.

Your friend is quite lucky to have been so near back home anyways.

pdwestman
Modify at "YOUR OWN RISK"!

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