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"Dual purpose" bike comments - 1st post

14K views 72 replies 12 participants last post by  Tom Schmitz 
#1 ·
Have recently started searching for a 2010 or later KLR to purchase so I don't have one at this time.

I was thinking of getting an extra set of wheels and mount street tires on them. Keep both of these at 19" wheel size to lower the bike a bit (I'm right at 6ft tall). I would mount knobbies on the wheels that come on the bike for my monthly weekend to the boonies. My question is pavement rideability/potential overheating on a KLR with street tires. It can get awfully warm here in Texas in the summer and my daily commute is about 60 miles through heavy traffic. Stop n go. Mainly stop! :frown2:

I've looked at the Thermo-bob and it seems that a product like this might be a good investment. I am also thinking of installing a big bore kit from EM to help with the oil consumption/driveability of the bike. One question regarding the front wheel. Does changing the front wheel size affect the speedometer accuracy?

I would appreciate any/all thoughts on this subject.

I have noticed many posts regarding the oil drain plug thread/strip. I happen to have a car with an aluminum oil pan which is similar. Do a search on Fumoto and look at their products. I use this myself and it's pretty slick. You screw in the valve one time and use your finger/tool to open/close the drain valve without ever having to remove it. A potential bonus is some of the valves offered by this company includes a spigot where a hose could be connected. Since I don't have one of these bikes yet, I don't have anything to look at but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the skid plate had to be removed every time the oil is changed. If true, I'm thinking a valve with a spigot could have a hose connected to it and wrapped inside of the skid plate and held in place with a wire tie, etc. When ready to change the oil, get out your drain pan, pull out the connected hose and open/shut the valve. I'm definitely going to look into this when I get a bike but if anyone wants to get a head start, it would be great to get your feedback/thoughts on this.

Only other question I have is: Is there a way to create a signature for your post so you don't have to do it each time you post?

Thanks,

Rick
 
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#2 ·
Q.) Does changing the front wheel size affect the speedometer accuracy?

A.) Yes it does. But as it comes stock, mine is at least 12-14% optimistic when I compare it to a GPS. 55 MPH indicated is actually 48 MPH according to the GPS.

Q.) Is there a way to create a signature for your post so you don't have to do it each time you post?

A.) Yes, See mine below. Go to "User CP" and its fairly intuitive.
 
#3 ·
The cooling system seems pretty well capable to keep from overheating as it comes, though I would like to have the fan come on a bit earlier than it does, but that's just me.
 
#4 · (Edited)
"Both 19" wheels?"

Rear's a 17" stock.

Changing wheel size bites off a lot to chew. Brake rotor and caliper bracket issues arise. We're talking cubic money here.

I've two sets of wheels, all stock; one pair shod with knobbies (Kenda TrakMaster IIs), another with a more pavement-friendly tread (Kenda K270). Best slab-biased tread I've found: Continental Trail Attacks.

Wouldn't over-think the oil drain plug . . . the enhancements you consider affect ground/skidplate clearance as a minimum. A plain ol' steel plug, maybe a magnetized low-profile one, will allow you to muddle through for the service life of the motorcycle. Serviceable skidplates available permit oil draining without removal of the protection, and . . . usually, balancer chain tension adjustment as well.

Regarding the Therno-Bob . . . while the device stabilizes coolant temperature more thoroughly, and at a higher temperature than the stock system, A THERMO-BOB DOES NOTHING AT ALL WHATSOEVER TO ENHANCE ENGINE COOLING. After the thermostat opens, you are at the mercy of coolant flow and air circulation, Thermo-Bob or not.

My suggestion: DANCE with the girl, AS IS, for awhile, BEFORE you send her off for a MAKEOVER! :)

And, rick-dallas . . . when, and if, you should EVER acquire a KLR650, of any vintage and condition, DO post of the event here on this website. Thanks!
 
#17 ·
My suggestion: DANCE with the girl, AS IS, for awhile, BEFORE you send her off for a MAKEOVER! :)
Solid advice, IMO.

The KLR gets an undeserved bad rep, I think. I drug pegs on my bike when it was bone stock and running worn out Shinko 705's. You don't NEED a smaller front wheel to make the bike turn, you can lay it over pretty well in stock trim.

Nothing wrong with making changes. I never keep a bike stock for long at all. Just don't think it's something you'll HAVE to do in order to have a safe handling bike. They really aren't the sloppy machines the internet paints them to be.

Cooling system should be up to the task of anything. I've slogged mine around on single tracks pretty mercilessly for hours on end. The fan will run alot, but the bike is fine. I wouldn't sweat overheating. I can't remember ever hearing of an overheating complaint on a KLR.

Good luck on your search.
 
#5 ·
I might try a lower temp stat and a bit lower temp fan thermo switch if cost is low enough before investing in a thermo-bob. I like to experiment with different options that way.
Mine sits at 3/4 temp scale quite a lot in hot weather and traffic.
As I understand it, TB helps more in cold weather, though it does come with a lower temp stat.
 
#7 · (Edited)
A lower temp stat would not increase cooling. The stock stat is wide open at 165 deg F. Well below mid scale. Removing the stat wouldn't increase cooling much either.

A lower temp fan switch wouldn't help much either because the stock switch has the fan on at just over mid range.

You could save your money for a larger radiator which would help, but you really don't benefit from running below mid range. I ran through the bottom of Death Valley at 117 deg F on my 2008 with no problems.
 
#6 ·
Good responses so far. To add to or reinforce what's been said;

- at 6' you shouldn't need to lower you bike unless you have extremely atypical leg length/height ratio
- 19" front and rear would be a big and expensive job. Yes the change in front wheel size will affect your speedo and going from a 17" rear to a 19" is bound to be problematic.
- The T bob is a great idea.....but as Damocles said, it doesn't affect overall cooling. This might be a useful read for you though: http://watt-man.com/uploads/Margin.pdf

Cheers,
Dave
 
#22 ·
The truth is that I enjoy this kind of exchange of information.
The Margin article is very good. I keep learning from you all.
The information is important to me since in Panama the ambient temperatures are high and any improvement on the motorcycle is welcome. I always worry about the temperature although I have no problem. I consider myself to be within the margins. However improving it is better for engine performance and durability. And more if it is an improvement more or less simple.

Questions. I do not understand the term STAT. This refers to the thermostat? It must be because I just wrote it at the end of the word. LOL.

What happens if the system thermostat is removed. There is better coolant flow, how it affects the engine. I used to take the thermostat from the engine of my cars when it was damaged (old cars), used it like that and nothing happened. Maybe a little more time to warm up but the ambient temperature is between 77 and 104F depending on the time of day.

Thanks for any feedback.

Regards
Dicky
 
#12 · (Edited)
I not sure what you're trying to point out here, but I'll try what I feel might help lower temps when sitting in 90 plus temps in traffic on asphalt. If anyone is interested then I'll post the results.

FWIW, I've never been a fan of allowing an engine to run hot. Often a simple mod can make a big difference, and I'm fully aware that air cooled engines don't have the benefit of liquid cooling however they typically don't last as long as liquid cooled.
 
#14 ·
Dan, What I'm trying to point out is that despite the link and info coming from Bill, it has nothing to do with the Thermobob, it's his experiments with increasing the cooling on a stock KLR. He has 5 or 6 recommendations in the write up. .....again, I can only assume you didn't read the link....and that's fine but I thought it was germane to the subject you were asking about. In particular I was responding to your comment: I'll probably wire in a fan bypass ON switch to see how well the fan can bring the temp down during those extremes.

Cheers,
Dave
 
#16 · (Edited)
Just to initiate chaos and dissension . . . I'll state again a premise: The Thermo-Bob does nothing to enhance engine cooling. After the thermostat opens, the engine remains fully dependent upon coolant flow and air circulation for cooling, Thermo-Bob or not.

Corrections, opposing opinions/points-of-view welcomed! :)

DISCLAIMER: Thermo-Bob stabilizes coolant more fully, and at a higher nominal operating temperature, than stock cooling system.

Now, manually-activated fan: In my experience, getting a little head-start on the thermal switch (activates around 200 degrees F. coolant temperature in the BOTTOM of the radiator) does little toward engine cooling. Ultimately, the heat load (unchanged by the manual switch) must be accommodated by coolant flow and air circulation, the latter enhanced by the electric cooling fan, when activated. Might take a little longer to reach the zenith in operating temperature, with early manual activation of the fan, but . . . ultimately, the heat load must be accommodated by the existing cooling components, or the temperature gauge needle goes too far into the red zone.

Knocking on wood, I've never encountered a situation where engine coolant temperature wasn't stabilized at a safe level by the stock cooling system; YMMV!
 
#18 · (Edited)
I think I agree with your assessment to the degree the KLR can actually move a large enough volume of coolant at idle and low rpm to make use of the fan coming on earlier.
A temp switch to bypass the fan ON costs almost nothing, or even just jumpering the switch in my garage can answer that question.

As far as the thermo-bob goes, it is a fine kit and hats off to his developing it, but i believe it's primary design was for cold climates which doesn't apply to hot weather 90+ climates. If it could maintain a engine temp of let's say 200-210 degrees at all times under any condition then that's a different deal all together.
Again, I am not so concerned with the temp mine runs at in my extremes, rather an engine and all it's components including oil will last longer if temps are kept lower than what I feel is close to its max as I'm seeing on the gauge. I like more safety margin than I'm seeing.
 
#19 ·
Dan is riding a Gen 2 which does have a substantially larger, more effective radiator than the Gen 1's.
So many of Watt-mans mods for improved cooling can't be used by Dan. But you should not need to improve the cooling on your Gen 2, Dan.

I'd show Dan a pic of a radiator cap with a built-in temp gauge, if its Green zone went up to 230-250 and yellow to 270.
Red zone really should Not Start at 212f. on a 1.8 Bar pressure cap even if it was running pure distilled water, which one should Never do.

Oh what the heck, I can't vouch its accuracy any ways. Here is a link, experiment.
https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/...-Pressure-Radiator-Cap-with-Temperature-Gauge
 
#21 ·
Kinda missing my point but I don't know how else to explain that I like to see my engines not being stressed by excessive temps whether they were designed to run like that or not.

Case in point is my service van. Gauge would read 3/4 scale (240-250 degrees) when under load with the AC on as designed from the factory. Changing the fan clutch to a heavy duty keeps the temp under control never going more than mid gauge (210) no matter the conditions. If one is okay with the high temps then that's fine but it will in fact reduce oil life, engine life, and life of other devices under that hood.

Anyway, I'll try some things. Could be there's no room for improvement in the stock KLR design without expensive modifications.
 
#23 ·
Yes "stat" is lazy for thermostat.

Didn't take much to test my theory if it will run cooler by turning the fan on earlier.
Jump across the thermo-switch plug to turn on the fan.....
After engine idling just a couple minutes, gauge barely above the cold tick, the fan blows off plenty of heat. Let it warm to 1/2 scale, bypass fan on brings temp below 1/2 in very little time. At just mid scale it got uncomfortable to hold my little jumper wire while heat blew out the side cover.

Running on the thermo-switch, gauge gets above 3/4 when fan comes on, then fan turns off at just above 1/2 scale.
 
#24 ·
After engine idling just a couple minutes, gauge barely above the cold tick, the fan blows off plenty of heat. Let it warm to 1/2 scale, bypass fan on brings temp below 1/2 in very little time. At just mid scale it got uncomfortable to hold my little jumper wire while heat blew out the side cover.

Running on the thermo-switch, gauge gets above 3/4 when fan comes on, then fan turns off at just above 1/2 scale.
Coolant Temp Face Overlay

Sounds to me as if your fan temp switch is malfunctioning in its rising temp. Specs,
From OFF to On (203-214F)
From On to OFF (189F) or less.

Granted there is some discrepancy between cylinder head temp and bottom tank of a motionless radiator. But most Gen2's with or with-out a Thermo-Bob will cycle the cooling fan from just Over Half way to just Under Half way (on the OEM gauge). So 190-220F on Gen2 and Gen1 units.
This is why I linked to the Tusk radiator cap & the TrailTech temp gauge.

Engines love 195-245F, better fuel mileage & cleaner oil, longer.
 
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#27 ·
I still think it's fair to say the Thermo-Bob RAISES, rather than LOWERS, nominal engine operating temperature, DPelletier!

YMMJV, but I've read DOZENS of posts from Thermo-Bob users who report higher temperature gauge readings during nominal operation, after Thermo-Bob installation, especially during cold ambient conditions.

Sounds reasonable, given a 30-degree F. delta in thermostat opening temperature with the Thermo-Bob.

Further, if I'm not mistaken, Thermo-Bob marketing literature claims elevated (from stock) oil temperature more closely approaches optimum lubrication performance condition.

If the Thermo-Bob instead LOWERS nominal engine operating temperature from stock conditions, I humbly stand corrected.
 
#32 ·
Somehow, deep in the recessions of my perceptions, lies the possibility . . . the Kawasaki designers and engineers specified clearances, materials, and manufacturing processes resulting in engine cooling systems adequate for creditable service life within plausible operational scenarios . . . or, maybe not!

Not to say the cooling systems cannot be improved.

The Versys 650, with a more highly-stressed engine than the KLR650, has no radiator bypass from the factory. I think a Thermo-Bob will bolt on, for Versys owners who want one.

Shakyshan: If the sight of flailing dead horses offends you, I suggest you avert your eyes! :) I think more dead horses than live ones will be beaten on this website!
 
#33 ·
My understanding is engines are designed to run best at a temperature determined by the thermostat. That is to say if the stat they put in it opens at 180 degrees, then it was designed to run close to that temp given the design tolerances. When considering cold weather driving it's easy to see this is true. If that engine would run more efficient at a higher temp, then why did they not design the stat and cooling system to make it so.
My suburban runs rock steady at 200-210 no matter the outside weather or load conditions. Roughly the same for my daughters new VW Tiguan and my sons new Jeep.
Bottom line is heat kills and should be kept under control if you want long life....imho.
 
#38 ·
Since you've measured oil temperature, PDW; what is nominal oil temperature on a KLR650 with stock cooling system and stock (165 degree) thermostat?

Or, does WattMan provide such data on his website?

Saw a cool Harley instrumentation suite, in a Cycle Gear parking lot: Had oil pressure, oil temperature, and I think a few other parameters gauged . . .
 
#39 · (Edited)
I love threads like this, get's the brain working. I need all the help I can get up there Lol.
On my Goldwing forum I tell guys if they can't stand (repeat) discussions that pop up then don't read them. Nobody is forcing you to.

Perhaps a re-read of the Watt-Man info referenced is in order....

I hear this occasionally from the over-generalizers. They get on a “hotter is worse” thread because
we all know that 300°F is worse than 250°F. And based on experience, 250° is worse than 230°. But is 160°
worse than 140°? No, it's better. Engines are designed to run in a certain operating range... 140° stinks,
150° is better, 160° is better still, etc. You want to be in that 190°-220° range all year to keep clearances
right and to keep your oil free of water.


"You want to be in that 190°-220° range all year to keep clearances
right and to keep your oil free of water."


As I said earlier.....well, I said 180 stat and 200-210 coolant temp but it's in that range.

I believe he is referencing coolant temperature, not oil temperature, which I have found to run very close in temps on my Goldwing. Have never checked the KLR.

Engine parts expand, and oil viscosity thins as it gets hotter. That is easy to see in a oil pressure gauge.

Hey, I'm the new guy here. Maybe you guys don't like to discuss certain things so if you want to let this thread die, then I'm fine with that but I thought discussions are what are done on discussion boards. In which case I am probably wise to leave this place.
 
#40 ·
Damocles, I'll defer to Tom Schmitz and Watt-man for on road testing of stock and standard oil temps.

Dan, Have you reviewed Toms oil temp numbers in 'Results only'? He lives out in So. Cal. also.
After he and I re-distributed a larger share of the engine oil up and across the 195f+ cylinder head and away from the cooler lower cylinder skirt/piston skirt we were able to bring oil temp up closer to coolant temp.
We've hijacked this thread so far from original question it probably doesn't much matter.
 
#41 ·
A more basic question might be; what is the MAINTENANCE CONSEQUENCE of operating oil temperatures?

In other words, will an oil temperature of, say 220 degrees F. comprise ENGINE ABUSE and truncate drastically service life, while 240 degrees extends mileage/hours between malfunctions and major overhaul dramatically?

And . . . how do we KNOW the consequences between such alternatives?
 
#43 ·
Just messing around.... garage temp was about 95 degrees, bike had been running for about 10 minutes. Did not ride it to warm it up good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_fX18u5UJQ&feature=youtu.be
Now ya' know why I deferred to Tom Schmitz and Watt-man for oem temperature measurements.

Actual probes and gauges. Instead of an IR thermometer which doesn't like certain Colors of metal or rubber.

Center of oil filter cap is at the very least, very consistent with an IR thermometer.
 
#45 · (Edited)
I wrote a post Monday. Then edited it, then apparently forgot to save changes. So it apparently disappeared.

I had an opportunity to ride 2 different air-cooled bikes on Sunday, about 25 miles each. 75-85f ambient temp. And used the IR thermometer on the cylinder head near the spark plugs and the oil sump after riding 1 mile of 30mph Main St. to my shop.

2009 KL250-G, Super Sherpa, single cylinder--Cyl head-269f---oil filter cap-206f
1981 KZ750-H, 750 LTD, 4 cylinder-------------Cyl head-285f------oil sump-223f
I got a second ride on the KZ750, 94f ambient temp.
1981 KZ750-H, 750 LTD, 4 cylinder-------------Cyl head-308f------oil sump-245f
 
#46 ·
...snip...I would mount knobbies on the wheels that come on the bike for my monthly weekend to the boonies. My question is pavement rideability/potential overheating on a KLR with street tires. It can get awfully warm here in Texas in the summer and my daily commute is about 60 miles through heavy traffic. Stop n go. Mainly stop! :frown2: ...snip...
2016 Gen2, purchased 11/2015. My home riding area is the Tampa Area in West Central Florida (about Houston Latitude). Ridiculous heat and humidity. I've never experienced any overheating, including hard riding on regional dual sport rallies.

Your call on the wheel sets, but consider that there are some dual sport 40-60 to 10-90 tires that are pretty dang good on the pavement as well as on the gnarly trials. The dual sport tires that I've used on the KLR are (less to more trail aggressive) Shinko 804/805, Conti TKC80 and Dunlop D606. I actually ran the Conti's back and forth on the Tail of the Dragon in North Carolina; at first I was a little white knuckled, but they did great! Just last weekend I was on the Dragon again with the Dunlops although on my DR650, and for 10-90 tires those were pretty good too. We currently run the Shinkos on the KLR for everything except sand riding, for which we flip on the Dunlops. Of course, as big blocks, while they do fairly well on wet roads, you really need to keep on top of braking distances.
 
#48 ·
If I could do anything regarding temperatures on the KLR it would be to get the oil temperature reliably up to 215°F or better.

The KLR runs cold on oil, way too cold.

I have recorded a correlation between oil temperature and oil consumption, especially when running over 5Krpm.

When I could maintain the oil temperature at 200°F or better oil consumption disappeared with Paul's mods to the oil distribution. Under 200°F, especially if it dropped to less than 190°F, meant a lot of oil consumption. Note that this was on a classic Gen 2 oil burner.

Hot and thin oil is better for oil consumption, and I believe that oil 'works' best when it is in the 225°F range, at least for my type of usage.

As to the coolant, I like to see 215°F at the head and 190°F at the T-Bob (I have a T-Bob 3). I have no problem maintaining that quite consistently. Ambient conditions don't affect it.

I can't get the oil temperature up, though, at least not reliably and consistently. With the head at 215° I can see oil temps ranging from 150°F to 230°F, depending on ambient conditions (ranging from 20°F and sleeting to 80°F and very dry) and whether or not the base of the engine is blocked off. Kawasaki's operating temperature for the oil is supposed to be 194°F (an odd number, eh?; it's 90°C converted) and that can be hard to achieve in anything less than 75°F.

I have blocked off as much of the engine guard and skid plate as possible with duct tape but I may have to adopt wattman's winter idea in order to get oil temps up:


It is on the short list for next mods should gain me 15°F of oil temperature.
 
#49 ·
If I could do anything regarding temperatures on the KLR it would be to get the oil temperature reliably up to 215°F or better.

The KLR runs cold on oil, way too cold.

I have recorded a correlation between oil temperature and oil consumption, especially when running over 5Krpm.

Hot and thin oil is better for oil consumption, and I believe that oil 'works' best when it is in the 225°F range, at least for my type of usage.

I have blocked off as much of the engine guard and skid plate as possible with duct tape but I may have to adopt wattman's winter idea in order to get oil temps up:

It is on the short list for next mods should gain me 15°F of oil temperature.
Tom, Good to have you join the conversation.

Maybe you would care to re-phrase that line?
"Hot and thin oil is better for oil consumption reduction",

I did suggest that a few years ago. 'Hot, thin oil may be more easily swiped off of the cylinder wall by the rings and evacuated thru the oil return holes in the ring land.' Or something like.
I'm sure the engineers have known this for 80-100 years.
Glad to read someone has been able to confirm the idea, on a KLR650.

Would 'anti-mud build-up' skid plate foam for real dirt bikes reduce the wind-chill enough to do any good?
 
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