Doohickey direct or via Happy-trail? - Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum
2008+ KLR650 Wrenching & Mod Questions For repair, maintaining or modifying discussions related to the newly updated 2008 and beyond, Generation 2 KLR650 Motorcycle.

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post #1 of 29 Old 05-03-2019, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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Doohickey direct or via Happy-trail?

I and planning my doohickey upgrade and have a question for those who have BTDT. I see that happy-trail appears to sell the Eagle Manufacturing genuine parts, with the exception of different tools. Looks like they used to rent tools, which would have been ideal, but no longer do that. However, there wrench is much less expensive and looks smaller for easier storage and I don’t plan to remove the rotor all that often so having a primo tool isn’t of great importance in this case.

So, a few questions:

1. Have any of you used both the EM tool and the HT tool and can offer pros and cons? Does the HT tool get the job done?

2. I see a number of comments that “Kawasaki recommends replacing the rotor bolt”, but I have reviewed the genuine 2017 Kawasaki service manual and I find no such recommendation. And I can see no reason to replace it since it does not appear to be a torque to yield bolt. Typically, only torque to yield bolts need to be replaced. And you typically know a bolt is torque to yield when you torque to a given setting and then turn to an angle as a second step.

3. Any other reason to order directly from Eagle rather than happy-trail.com? They both seem to enjoy impeccable reputations.
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post #2 of 29 Old 05-03-2019, 03:32 PM
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1. Can't help with that as I've only used the EM tools....which as you'd expect are perfect like everything Mike makes

2) I'd have to dig through the Manuals I have but I was fairly certain they did call it up as a one time use bolt. It wouldn't be the first time that the factory manuals have conflicting information (i.e. drain plug torque, etc. etc.) That said, dozens of people have re-used the rotor bolts with no apparent ill affects. Me? I always error on the side of caution so I replace mine.

3) HT is fine but I order all my EM stuff directly from Mike that way I know I'm getting the very latest parts and information....plus Mike's service is great and I'd rather deal directly with the source.

2 cents,
Dave
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post #3 of 29 Old 05-03-2019, 05:08 PM
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I'd have to check manuals, too, but I believe it was in the KLR600 manual where it was called a replacement item. The funny thing about that is that the torque requirement (which has varied quite a bit) was lower in that usage. edit: For those not familiar with the early KHI manual system, the KLR600 was the base manual so any requirements in it, unless superseded in a later supplement, carried through to 2007. Thus the bolt replacement may have carried through to 2007; dunno if it was ever superseded in a Gen1 supplement.

This is one of those things were, when asked what is needed, I suggest a replacement bolt because it's never a bad idea to replace the bolt, it isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things, and I don't want to take any liability or have a guilty conscience should something go wrong with the bolt replacement. If a replacement bolt is used supplied the original bolt gets cleaned with acetone and used for the initial torquing, then the new bolt is installed.

Working on my own stuff I don't replace the bolt.
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Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 05-03-2019 at 05:18 PM.
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post #4 of 29 Old 05-03-2019, 07:18 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
I'd have to check manuals, too, but I believe it was in the KLR600 manual where it was called a replacement item. The funny thing about that is that the torque requirement (which has varied quite a bit) was lower in that usage. edit: For those not familiar with the early KHI manual system, the KLR600 was the base manual so any requirements in it, unless superseded in a later supplement, carried through to 2007. Thus the bolt replacement may have carried through to 2007; dunno if it was ever superseded in a Gen1 supplement.

This is one of those things were, when asked what is needed, I suggest a replacement bolt because it's never a bad idea to replace the bolt, it isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things, and I don't want to take any liability or have a guilty conscience should something go wrong with the bolt replacement. If a replacement bolt is used supplied the original bolt gets cleaned with acetone and used for the initial torquing, then the new bolt is installed.

Working on my own stuff I don't replace the bolt.
Do you replace your lug nuts at every tire rotation?

I thought $15 was pretty outrageous for a bolt. That’s almost a full tank of gas. Those are BMW prices for crying out loud!

For me, it’s not the money, I can certainly afford it, it is the principle. I simply don’t like wasting anything so the idea of replacing a part that does not need to be replaced rubs me the wrong way. And I see no reason at all to replace this fastener unless Kawasaki explicitly states to replace it.

BMW has a few fasteners on my LT that are one-time use, but it is pretty clear why. One is the large nut that holds the flywheel on. It is a nut that has a slot cut sideways through about half of its diameter and it is a torque and then angle turn nut that actually deforms that cut slot when tightened. It is pretty obvious that it is one-time use.

The others are the bolts that hold the clutch assembly to the flywheel, and again they are fairly small bolts with star washers and I think the main issue there was deformation of the star washers more-so than the bolts, but of course they sell the bolts and washers as a pair. I replaced mine per the BMW manual, but then had to remove the clutch when someone on the LT forum noticed in one of my pictures that one of the rivets in my clutch disk was deformed. So, I had to disassemble the clutch and send the disk back to the vendor. Don’t tell BMW, but I did not buy another set of clutch bolts.

After 20,000 miles, I am not too worried about them failing. The torque value used is well within the elastic range for bolts of that size so I am pretty sure the main issue was re-use of the star washers, but I took the risk.
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post #5 of 29 Old 05-03-2019, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Do you replace your lug nuts at every tire rotation? <Non-sequitur

I thought $15 was pretty outrageous for a bolt. That’s almost a full tank of gas. Those are BMW prices for crying out loud!

For me, it’s not the money, I can certainly afford it, it is the principle. I simply don’t like wasting anything so the idea of replacing a part that does not need to be replaced rubs me the wrong way. And I see no reason at all to replace this fastener unless Kawasaki explicitly states to replace it....
You'll get no argument from me. I don't replace mine and it's been in and out quite a few times.

Interesting* history: The bolt has not changed over the entire run of KLR650s. The torque was, at first, 87ft-lbs (or 115ft-lbs, depending on which page of the '84 manual you happened to be reading). Then it was raised to 130ft-lbs, and finally to 144ft-lbs. As far as I know, the crank has undergone at least four iterations. First the '84 KLR600 crank, then it was lengthened by a halfish inch for the '85 and '86 600s, then the '87 crank came along only to be replaced in 1988. It changed again in the big '96 redesign and again with the Gen 2 introduction in 2008.

The threaded section for the rotor bolt, though, has never changed.

*But not fascinating...
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“If I wasn't hard, I wouldn't be alive. If I couldn't ever be gentle, I wouldn't deserve to be alive.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.

Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 05-03-2019 at 10:01 PM.
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post #6 of 29 Old 05-03-2019, 09:58 PM
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Just drove myself nuts finding the reference...

The only Gen 1 manual that I have is 99924-1080-58, which was current at around MY2002. On page 14-7 it says:

•Replace the magneto flywheel bolt with a new one.
This bolt is required to replace if it has been tightened
once to the specified torque.


It is likely that this replaceable item idea covered '87 to '07 or perhaps '96 to '07, when it was apparently repealed for the Gen 2 bikes when they raised the torque value by 14ft-lbs.

@pdwestman might be able to confirm that the above quote is in both the MY87 and the MY07 supplements.

Tom [email protected]

“If I wasn't hard, I wouldn't be alive. If I couldn't ever be gentle, I wouldn't deserve to be alive.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.
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post #7 of 29 Old 05-03-2019, 10:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
Just drove myself nuts finding the reference...

The only Gen 1 manual that I have is 99924-1080-58, which was current at around MY2002. On page 14-7 it says:

•Replace the magneto flywheel bolt with a new one.
This bolt is required to replace if it has been tightened
once to the specified torque.


It is likely that this replaceable item idea covered '87 to '07 or perhaps '96 to '07, when it was apparently repealed for the Gen 2 bikes when they raised the torque value by 14ft-lbs.

@pdwestman might be able to confirm that the above quote is in both the MY87 and the MY07 supplements.
That is interesting. I wonder if the bolt material and/or coating/plating was changed?

If I am reading the fiche correctly, this is a 12 mm x 40 mm bolt. I don’t know what grade it is, but assuming it is a 12.9, the maximum torque would be in the 100-110 ft-lbs depending on which source you look at. So, if folks are torquing to 144, then this may well be getting into the yield range. Usually, though, you can feel that when tightening as you get that funny “taffy pulling” feel at the end where the motion continues, but the force levels out.

Hmmm.....
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post #8 of 29 Old 05-03-2019, 11:21 PM
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The bolt has not changed since its inception, meaning no change in material, heat treatment, coating (appears to be simply black oxide) rolled vs cut threads (who has cut production threads in the past 50 years except odd screw machine stuff?).

They did get more specific about the torque sequence and the hole and bolt being clean and dry. Maybe they figured the 87ft-lbs was going to be wet.

I did the math on it once and, yeah, it is close to yield if it is a 12.9, but I've never felt anything.

I suspect it may be worth every bit of the $15.

We had a set of 5/8" bolts that attached the AIM9 missile launcher to the F5 and the F16 back in the late '70s. The torque on those could cause ruptures in the torquee.

Seeing as how 87ft-lbs worked in '84-'86, one wonders why 144ft-lbs is required since 2008. Archie Bell and the Drells must be on the Torque Staff at KHI...

Tom [email protected]

“If I wasn't hard, I wouldn't be alive. If I couldn't ever be gentle, I wouldn't deserve to be alive.” -Philip Marlowe

“'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used.” -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.

Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 05-03-2019 at 11:25 PM.
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post #9 of 29 Old 05-04-2019, 06:36 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
The bolt has not changed since its inception, meaning no change in material, heat treatment, coating (appears to be simply black oxide) rolled vs cut threads (who has cut production threads in the past 50 years except odd screw machine stuff?).

They did get more specific about the torque sequence and the hole and bolt being clean and dry. Maybe they figured the 87ft-lbs was going to be wet.

I did the math on it once and, yeah, it is close to yield if it is a 12.9, but I've never felt anything.

I suspect it may be worth every bit of the $15.

We had a set of 5/8" bolts that attached the AIM9 missile launcher to the F5 and the F16 back in the late '70s. The torque on those could cause ruptures in the torquee.

Seeing as how 87ft-lbs worked in '84-'86, one wonders why 144ft-lbs is required since 2008. Archie Bell and the Drells must be on the Torque Staff at KHI...
Doth seem odd given that it appears to be both a keyed and tapered shaft fit. Then again, the vibration both torsional and otherwise of a large thumper can be intense...
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post #10 of 29 Old 05-04-2019, 11:25 AM
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I and planning my doohickey upgrade and have a question for those who have BTDT. I see that happy-trail appears to sell the Eagle Manufacturing genuine parts, with the exception of different tools. Looks like they used to rent tools, which would have been ideal, but no longer do that. However, there wrench is much less expensive and looks smaller for easier storage and I don’t plan to remove the rotor all that often so having a primo tool isn’t of great importance in this case.

So, a few questions:

1. Have any of you used both the EM tool and the HT tool and can offer pros and cons? Does the HT tool get the job done?

I have the oem tools & the HT tools. I like to use the HT tools, the wrench stays in place. The magnets want to un-seat the oem open end wrench. I've stripped the thread on the oem puller bolt once & had to re-mill the end. (Better the puller threads than the flywheel threads. I've since used Oxy-Acet torch on a few stubborn flywheels.)
It appears to me that the EM wrench is overly bulky.



2. I see a number of comments that “Kawasaki recommends replacing the rotor bolt”, but I have reviewed the genuine 2017 Kawasaki service manual and I find no such recommendation. And I can see no reason to replace it since it does not appear to be a torque to yield bolt. Typically, only torque to yield bolts need to be replaced. And you typically know a bolt is torque to yield when you torque to a given setting and then turn to an angle as a second step.

I used to encourage bolt replacement, now I leave it to the customers discretion. If I have to use the cheater pipe on the breaker bar to Remove the bolt & use Oxy/Acet torch to remove the flywheel, I REPLACE the bolt.


3. Any other reason to order directly from Eagle rather than happy-trail.com? They both seem to enjoy impeccable reputations.

If either has more goodies which you desire & prices are comparable either is a Great Choice. They both support our chosen bike & sport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
Just drove myself nuts finding the reference...

The only Gen 1 manual that I have is 99924-1080-58, which was current at around MY2002. On page 14-7 it says:

•Replace the magneto flywheel bolt with a new one.
This bolt is required to replace if it has been tightened
once to the specified torque.


It is likely that this replaceable item idea covered '87 to '07 or perhaps '96 to '07, when it was apparently repealed for the Gen 2 bikes when they raised the torque value by 14ft-lbs.

@pdwestman might be able to confirm that the above quote is in both the MY87 and the MY07 supplements.
The ORIGINAL 1987 OEM KL650-A1 service manual supplement #99924-1080-51 had a FEW errors.

Page 14-7
Tightening Torque
Magneto flywheel bolt:
235 N-m (24 kg-m, 175 ft-lb)--------take notice of newer Gen 1 manual numbers 175 N-m (18.0 kg-m, 130 ft-lb)

The Gen 1 manuals suggests a stepped torque of 87 ft lb, loosen then tighten to final torque. Says nothing about clean & dry.
The Gen 2 manual suggests a stepped torque of 15 ft lb, remove the bolt, clean & dry, re-install & final torque of 144 ft lb. (No where do they say to clean & dry the crankshaft threads, so why bother.)

They all say clean & dry on the tapers, as is absolutely always required of taper fits. I always place 2 stipples or indents into one side of the lower portion of the woodruff key and tap it down into the fly-cut, makes it Stay In Place.

I personally don't believe that loosening will allow any 're-centering' or 'relaxing' of the tapers, whether one steps at 15 or 87 ft lbs.

I personally use anti-seize grease under the head & on the bolt threads and dis-continued the stepped torque sequence Long ago and Torque all KLR650's to 130 Foot Pounds. (130 lubed pretty much equals 144 dry)
(I have had factory installed flywheels almost fall off & others that required massive persuasion.)

pdwestman
Modify at "YOUR OWN RISK"!

Still riding my 1987 KL650-A1. 83,000+ miles & counting
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