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2016 KLR Low Speed Off-road Front Tire "Wobble"

16K views 64 replies 10 participants last post by  ChrisCC 
#1 · (Edited)
Greetings, folks!

I purchased a 16 KLR last year used with 850 miles on it. Spent some time kitting it out for long distance ADV in NV (and anywhere else I want to go:). The front felt a bit flexy when hitting the brake stopping at a fuel pump but I chalked it up to gallons of gas sloshing back and forth in the tank. I put an EM fork brace on it just in case, even though I don't like fork braces because they force a certain distance between the tubes along the entire travel (good or bad, that's a different topic:). My bud and I did a 732 mile circle route Sacramento to Lovelock to Middlegate to Markleeville back to Sac. (Now have 1900 miles on it) When offroad in the soft stuff, I had a wicked "wobble" in the handlebars at slow speed...if felt like the wheel was turning left or right when the handlebars were not and I ended up turning the handlebars back and forth cyclically in order to keep the front wheel moving in a straight line. Downhill in soft dirt with no brake was ok, but the minute I hit the front brake going downhill (been riding dirt bikes for 45 years...a properly used front brake is useful offroad:) the wheel and handlebars started the oscillation. I tried the downhill with 21 # in the front and it was bad, then tried it with 18 # in the front and it was seriously "white-knuckle" with higher magnitude oscillations. It felt like the forks were flexing 30 degrees back and forth and I had to cyclically turn the wheels the opposite way to compensate. They weren't, it just felt that way (all this with the EM fork brace installed, even). I felt this same "wobble" when doing a sharp u-turn at 3 miles an hour on pavement and, if I was on an aggregate cement, the type with little rocks on the surface, the u-turn wobble was so bad that it was difficult to keep the bike upright.

Steering stem bearings were fine, swingarm bearings were fine, rear tire was aligned properly, and the bike did it with or without load: higher load did make it worse, likely due to more weight on front end. On pavement in normal turn or straight line it didn't wobble at all. Zero wobble on road and smooth (i.e. KLR's version of smooth) all the way up to top speed with no wobble.

Turns out the original owner, in 850 miles, had worn the stock front tire such that alternating knobbies were different in height by 3 mm!

I put new TKCs on the wheels yesterday. The front was toast, as mentioned before, and the rear was already worn out at 1900 miles. I suspect the egregious differential in front tire block wear caused the problem, but will find out from a test ride.

I'll report back on the results.

Anyone else have a similar experience with the type of handling anomaly I described?

Cheers!
James
 
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#2 ·
I'm to late to suggest that you physically check the torque on the front axle before you remove the nut. But grab your torque wrench and see how close you got it during your tire install, I'll guess you didn't use a torque wrench.

I seldom do either on tire jobs, but one never really knows the causes of issues unless we check the Finer Details.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I had previously torqued both axles (and a slew of other fasteners) to spec. I am one of those guys that uses calibrated torque wrenches, locktite only where required by the manual, and check my torques often. In the field, I did increase tire pressure to 23 and that did lesson the symptoms....enough to be only "of concern" instead of "white knuckle" on complex, rutted, downhills offroad :)

When I bought the bike I found several accessories that had been installed by someone who didn't have much mechanical skill (I am saying that nicely), so I went through the bike and checked, torqued, and reinstalled many components. I previously checked the steering stem play (none) and fluidity of movement, as well as the swingarm/suspension links movement. I am also going to pull them both apart and regrease them both regardless, as the bike is three years old now.

Thanks for the feedback!
James
 
#5 · (Edited)
Yeah....I am leaning toward the egregiously uneven tire wear being the problem.....when I arrived for a test ride to buy the 800 mile bike the tire was almost flat. I initially chalked it up to the first owner letting it sit for a long time (he had a new baby and thus a change in priorities), but now it looks more like he drove his new bike 800 miles with the tire at "danger low" pressure and literally ruined the tire. Plus, inflating or deflating the tire in the field made a huge difference in handling, indicating the tire is "most" of the problem, if not all of it.

We'll see....I will reinstall the wheels with the new TKCs and check for elimination of the problem before I pull apart the stem and swingarm to regrease them.

What was surprising about this was the high degree of impact on offroad handling. I rode many bikes as a kid with horrific tires on them and didn't ever feel anything like this...being a kid and all, you don't have a whole lot of choices and no money :) This included a 69 DT-1B 250 which felt as heavy as the KLR! :-D.

I'll report back after riding with the new tires to advise if the problem is fixed or not.


Thanks!
 
#6 ·
Low tire pressure may make the "braking pattern" wear on knobbies worse, but it isn't the cause; it's normal wear when using the front brake on pavement. Hopefully, that is the problem as I've never heard of low speed braking wobbles before.

As far as the fork brace, there is a risk of tube missalignment with some which is why I use the Eaglemike brace - it's adjustable and if set up properly will not cause the forks to bind. I don't think that's your problem though.

you sound like you know what you're doing so I'm sure you'll get it sorted; let us know.

Dave
 
#7 ·
Oh, and from the other thread; I used to run 12-14 front and 10-12 rear on my offroad bikes. That's too low on the KLR due to the excess porkage and lack of rimlocks - I personally won't go below 18psi. I agree with Paul that the front should be run at 2psi more than the rear unless heavily loaded or two up. I run mostly around town and offroad so I keep mine at about 22-24psi front and 20-22 psi rear. If I was going to do a longer highway stint, I'd add 5psi

2 cents,
Dave
 
#8 ·
I have a 2017 KLR. No wobbles at all when unloaded. When loaded with about 85 pounds of gear in soft bags and behind me in duffle (30-30-25), I experienced a pronounced slow speed wobble when coming to a stop or trying to U turn at very slow speed (on two sets of tires--Motoz GPS Tractionators and Shinko 704/705). I rode across Mojave on the Shinkos, and in deep sand, the bike was nearly impossible to control. I have Cogent suspension with proper sag. When I got back I played with loading. I repacked to change the balance to 20-20-45, and much of the slow speed wobble went away. Not all, but I get some just when the tank is full. I haven't had access to deep sand since Mojave.
 
#9 ·
You're not alone . I think it's a "New Edition" problem. My '13 was fine as were the 09 and several others over the years. I bought a '17 and the low speed wobble was BAD. (On road or off but more noticeable on the street) My friend in Utah bought a '17 and said his was the same. I sold mine and later bought a used '14 New Edition. It wobbled but not as bad as the '17 (the '14 has Kenda tires) .
So now I check with others that have '14 and later and most of them say they have the same problem. One person said he has used 3 different sets of tires with no change. I have experimented a good bit and have settled on 32 lbs air in front , 30 lbs in rear and forks up 1/2 inch in clamps. With a full tank of gas the wobble is almost imperceptible. It gets slightly worse as the gas level goes down.
I had racks and sidecases , and when I removed them there was no difference. A loaded bag , maybe 8 or 10 lbs , on the rack has no effect. Everyone says the lower the air pressure the worse the wobble and mine is the same.
I would love to trade forks from a '13 and see what happens. Maybe the rear spring too. I just keep suspecting the new stiffer suspension as the culprit .
I have little suspension knowledge or experience so I'm just trying everything that is affordable and within my abilities. I hope somebody can figure it out completely.
 
#10 ·
My 17 stock was fine on the road. By the time I rode loaded I had Cogent suspension. The NE bodywork adds a bunch of weight up front, but I like it for the highway. (I had a 96 I commuted on sometimes, and the 17 fairing is a huge improvement.) Lots of ADV bikes have large side cases and are heavily loaded, and don't seem to become suicidal in sand. I think the symptom would be helped with a steering damper. Can't guess what the issue is. Geometry perhaps, if moving the forks up helped.
 
#11 ·
FWIW, here's my standard "wobble post", though I'd note that it deals with the common high speed wobble more than anything else;




Way too many people think that addressing the symptoms by dealing with handguards, fenders, fork braces, etc. are the answer rather than dealing with the real issue which is related to suspension setup and loading. I'm not convinced that the KLR is any more susceptible to instability than any other bike with long travel, lightly damped suspension and the Owner's have a propensity for severe and uneven loading.

There are some problems that need to be checked;
- bad/lose head bearings
- condition of wheel bearings and suspension bushings
- wheel and tire condition and appropriate tire pressures.

.....beyond that, It's settings;
- proper sag settings and adequate damping
- proper bike loading
- avoiding inappropriately un-aerodynamic loads

addressing the symptoms rather than the cause can help but IMO shouldn't be done until all the aforementioned items are checked and corrected if necessary. Nonetheless these can help stability;

- fork brace
- smaller fender or lowered fender (I use a polisport as I hate both the supermoto and low mounted fenders)
- consider tank bags instead of putting everything in huge panniers which affects both weight loading and aerodynamics.


My 2001 had some high speed issues that went away as soon as the sag was set properly....and after my Cogent suspension was installed, both my KLR's have been rock steady.....even with full knobbies and low tire pressures (20 - 22PSI). Lastly, as others have mentioned, the rider also plays a part; keep a relaxed light grip on the bars and don't tighten up. Changing your position (move forward/lean forward) can help too.

2 cents,
Dave
 
#12 ·
Moving forward helps on mine. Especially on the Dragon. I hug the tank on the Dragon and I'm too busy to notice any wobbles. And that doesn't help any with the o.p.'s issue - slow speed wobble - and mine is more of a weave. At low speed the bike slightly veers left or right and must be corrected and then it slightly veers in the other direction. On my NEW '17 the service manager rode it around the parking lot and said it was steering head bearings (it REALLY felt like that) , but the bearings were fine and properly adjusted . Other people have had the same thoughts and no one has found a bearing problem. None of us want to spend big money on Cogent suspension only to still have the problem.
If someone knows someone at Cogent and can ask if they have heard of this problem .....maybe they have and maybe there mods fix it. THEN I imagine I would be heading for Cogent.
Until something else comes up I'm gonna try another 1/2" lower with the forks.
 
#13 ·
Two things;

- What you're describing REALLY sounds like the steering head bearings are too tight.....I had the exact same feeling/issue when mine were overtightened - it doesn't take much.

- spending big money on Cogent suspension has benefits that go far beyond the steering...give Rick or Todd a call though and they're always happy to talk suspension.

Dave
 
#15 · (Edited)
Hi Folks,

Thank you folks for all the great input! I adjusted my notifications so that I know when you answer....sheesh, my bad.

I got the TKC 80s installed and spokes tightened/wheel trued. I put 34# rear and 32# front, as I was running me (215#) and 110# of camping gear (30# for each loaded sidebag, 16# for the loaded topcase, 18# for a loaded Drybag 350, 13# for a loaded Drybag 260, and 1.5# in each loaded crashbar Drybag 80). Total rider/gear weight of 325#. A high load but certainly not the "Most Ever".

I set the forks at the stock height (cap bottom at triple clamp surface) and set the rear preload at 5. I set rear damping at full soft in order for the wheel to handle small sharp edged rocks without pumping down. I measured rider sag with full load at 61mm front, 86mm rear, (i.e. 0.3 of F travel, 0.46 of rear travel). These sag figures are about 10mm more than just me on the bike with no bags or camping gear, and the shock preload at 1.

The slow speed wobble is more an oscillation, as it starts with the front wheel getting pushed sideways by the terrain and the "wave" travels to the rear wheel. It feels like there is a vertical hinge in the middle of the bike and the front and rear wheels are not tracking straight. Think of how a fish moves in the water...that's how it feels.

I ran the higher tire pressures because the bike was "camping loaded" and because the oscillation is damped by higher tire pressures. Any terrain more aggressive than a flat dirt road is impossible. Any car tire rutting in a dirt road will get the oscillation going. As it was, even with the higher pressures, on flat dirt roads I couldn't go above 20 mph or the oscillation grew strong enough to dump the bike. We accidentally took a wrong turn and hit a "4wd road" with two 7" deep car tire ruts and I got my workout for the week trying to keep the bike upright. I would have lowered the pressures to proper dirt pressures, but didn't want to increase the tendency for the bike to oscillate. Obviously with the higher pressures the general tire performance in the dirt was substandard, but I am impressed with the TKC 80s performance both on road and on dirt so far.

I am able to recreate the oscillation at a stand still by holding the bike up, standing next to it, and *quickly* cycling the handlebars back and forth about 3-4" about 5 times and then letting go of the bars...the bars continue to oscillate back and forth about 5 times with the front end shaking the entire frame of the bike back to the rear wheel. (Full gas tank, full camping load)

The change in tires, spoke tightening did nothing to correct the oscillation...it is not the tires or spokes. Wheel bearings are also good.

I checked the frame for cracks and did not see any...though it is possible, but unlikely, that there are hidden cracks. The bike had 800 miles on it when I bought it and it was in good condition...no wrecks.

Note that the only time I feel the oscillation on an asphalt or concrete road is when braking from 5 to 0 mph, accelerating from 0 to 5 miles per hour, and doing slow speed u-turns. At any speed over 5mph on the asphalt or concrete there is absolutely no problem.

If this was a standard problem, I would expect that this board would be aflame with upset NE owners who tried to carry camping loads or aggressively dirt ride their NEs....from what dirt road and seldredg said above, there are many NE owners who have at least some version of this problem.

I pulled all my loaded bags off and tried the bike "WR250F style". A majority of the oscillation was gone, but I could still feel it in more extreme rutted conditions. The added camping load makes the oscillations worse, but the camping load is not the primary generator of the oscillations.

Note my co-rider (~170#), on a stock 09 KLR with 15K miles and with 90# of camping gear, was able to ride with none of the oscillation feeling at all. He had no problems. I rode his bike and tried my standing oscillation test. His bike tracked properly when I rode it, and in my standing test I could feel the same "wave" in his bike when I did the standing test BUT it only cycled once, and it was of MUCH less amplitude than the oscillation on my bike.

I pulled the steering stem out and am replacing the races and bearings. Those I took out looked ok, but I want to eliminate each possible source of the problem. I will, of course, torque the new bearings properly. New bearings never hurt.

My forks sits two inches higher than the 09 forks at static. It is not lost on me that this means that there is less overlap between the upper and lower fork tubes, which can lead to more bending between the two tubes...especially given that the front damping is so ridiculously stiff. I can imagine the two tubes bending against each other when the oil locks on quick impacts. I will check the forks to make sure they have the same amount of oil in them and that no one has screwed up the internals, and raise the tubes in the triple clamps after measuring the max distance that I can raise them. This will obviously weight the front end, causing the forks to compress more (more overlap, less bend) and steepening the rake (quicker turning more amenable to slow speed handling). I will also test 5 weight oil in the fork to soften the damping. Raising the forks and testing less viscous oil are, of course, an interim proxy test for getting the right spring and lowering the damping through DDCs. If raising the forks and putting less viscous oil substantially eliminates the oscillation, then I know that fork geometry/function/length is a primary cause and so I could reasonably spend $$ for Cogent rider-specific springs and DDCs. (As with some folks above, I also don't want to spend $$ only to find it doesn't help).

If raising the forks and testing 5W fork oil does not make any change in the oscillations, I will change the bearings on the swing arm. I already tested it for looseness and it was not loose. However, again, new bearings never hurt anyone.

If the new tires, good wheel bearings, tightened spokes, new stem bearings, raised forks, proper amounts of less viscous fork oil, and new swing arm bearings does not eliminate the oscillations, then I am left with one conclusion: the NE wheel-fork-tripleclamp-frame-swingarm-wheel engineered system is not strong enough to handle a camping load without flexure.

Based on my experience, I agree with dirt road that the most likely cause of the problem is the NE suspension...the bike sits higher in front (less overlap between upper and lower fork tubes, longer total fork length imparts higher side loads to the steering stem, and creates "Easy Rider"-style handling via the raked fork), and the compression damping is stiff on both the forks and the shock which helps keep the suspension extended on sharp hits and transmits impact loads directly to the bike. So, hopefully my test will reveal that the suspension is the culprit and I can then justify the $$ to get custom springs (shorter, softer) and DDCs (less damping) tailored to me and my riding style.

I will report back as I go through it.

Thanks again for the feedback!

Cheers!
 
#16 ·
Looking forward to what you discover. You're bike's behavior seems to match mine closely. I've added a steering damper but haven't had a chance to test it off road. I'm currently packing it fully loaded for a trip sometime this summer so I can see how it handles. May have to go to Metcalf or Carnegie to find some dirt.
 
#17 ·
Let us know how the damper goes. I would think that would be "Treating the symptom", but right now I am open to anything/any data :). Our first trip last month was Sacto to Lovelock NV to Middlegate NV to Markleesville CA (700 mi dirt and street) and we just finished a 250 mile dirt/street Sacto to Masonic CA to Bodie CA to Bridgeport to Sacto trip. So I have some great experience now with how the KLR (doesn't) handle. I will get this sorted out asap....times a-wastin....!

Ya know, we are only about 50 miles farther from you than Metcalf or Carnegie. You are welcome to join us on a NV ride any time! Hopefully with our sorted out bikes... :wink2:
 
#18 ·
I'm ok with treating the symptom if it works. Better if you discover the cause, but it may be designed in, combination of changed geometry and adding the fairing that manifests in deep sand. Thanks for the invitation. I've been riding alone so far, not always my first choice.

Thinking of riding the northern part of the NVBDR in Fall, perhaps September. Starting from Tonapah. Have the video but haven't watched it yet. Think about it.
 
#19 ·
My current medicine is giving me insomnia. I'm glad this forum is "open all night" .
So far dropping the triple clamps down 1/2 inch has been the most help. I rode 150 miles yesterday and barely thought about the steering . My bike has 6400 miles now. A couple of times I noticed a slight feeling as I was coming to a stop , wherein the front just felt vague and kind of like the "rain groove" weave. It was very mild . Either things are improving on mine or I'm just getting used to it.
Saturday I went to Dual Sport Demo Days at my local dealer. I rode the new SWM Super Dual X and it was fast , smooth and great handling. It's a bit pricey at $8995 , but it has lots of Husqvarna DNA and comes STANDARD with a centerstand. (In other markets it comes standard with hard side cases) A comparable Husky would cost a lot more so maybe the SWM will do well in America.
 
#20 ·
I just emailed Rick and Todd at Cogent with a brief description of the problem, a link to this thread for reference, and a question of whether they have encountered this problem with their 14.5 NE customers and whether the suspension upgrades (correct spring rate for rider/bike (and thus correct ride heights), correct damping rates) eliminated the problem. As a dirt biker with 50 years of riding and wrenching, I ascribe to the practice of setting up the suspension for the rider/riding style, and will drop the $2K coin, but not if the basic platform can't handle the job.

seldredg,

You make a good point...if the steering damper corrects a (hypothetically) otherwise uncorrectable condition, then it means the bike works with camping loads offroad, as opposed to having to get a different bike ($$$$$). No small benefit, indeed! I will run the BDR idea past my riding bud and get back to you. Good idea! I love the "start from Tonopah" phrase....so getting to Tonopah is just bellying up to the starting line! :) Adv riders rock!

dirt road,

Are you describing on-road behavior or off-road behavior improving with tube raise? I can see raising the tubes canceling out the onroad minor slow speed oscillation when starting or stopping, but do you also NOT have the egregious offroad "bike bends in half, wheels go all over, heart goes into throat, burn 1000 calories getting control back, instantly soak your clothes with terror sweat" behavior with the forks raised? (please say yes) ;-)

I'll report back when I hear from Rick/Todd.

Cheers!
 
#21 ·
A couple thoughts;

- you have WAY too much rear sag....should be 25 - 33% or 1.83 - 2.41".....you have almost an inch more than the max. I'd try it at 2 1/4" or thereabouts.....if you can't get that then your spring is too soft (or you could try a set of EM raising links). Common wisdom suggests that the more you increase rake (by having the rear too low) the more stable the bike should be at speed but on the KLR it seems that unweighting the front end with sag and load can cause instability. I'm not surprised that someone dropped their forks and it helped.

- 5W oil is too light IMO, but you can ask Rick. I run 5W but only with the Cogent DDC's as they are designed for it.

- I don't think fork flex is your issue. ....as a matter of fact, the wobble/weave you describe almost sounds more like bad swingarm bushings, rear wheel bearings, rear wheel or a broken frame - none of which should be an issue on an almost new bike.


keep us posted and good luck,

Cheers,
Dave
 
#22 · (Edited)
Thanks, Dave!

Yeah, I measured the static sag and the springs are indeed not correct for my parameters. I get the proper springs and damping for every dirt bike I own....but I am going to figure this out before dropping that kind of coin on upgraded suspension. This problem feels to me like "something wrong" as opposed to "needs better suspension", for sure.

My initial plan was to try the 5W fork oil and raising the fork tubes as a means to encourage more fork compression to observe any changes in the oscillation characteristic.

I am starting with the forks and steering stem and working my way backwards. I will pull the forks apart, replace consumables, and check for bizarre parts (i.e. previous owner's work) and strange wear, and will put new bearings in the steering stem. (I will also doublecheck the front wheel bearings again).


I pulled the fork springs and spacers out today in preparation for rebuilding the forks. Before doing so, I placed 35.8# on each fork and measured 8/16" and 9/16" of compression. Not perfectly controlled, but did it several times with good reproducibility. If my math is right, that is a 1.14kg/mm to 1.28 kg/mm spring rate. (35.8#*1kg/2.2#*(9/16)"*25.4mm/in). I checked the scale with a barbell weight and it was spot on. The most definitive data I found was "sasquatch t" on this site at 0.52kg/mm for a 14.5NE fork spring. That is 42% of my measured rate! Yes, of course I will have friction losses in the fork and need to measure just the spring to get the true rate, which I will do, but that is a LOT of friction loss.

The fork spring wire diameter is 4.5mm thick, and the spring is 355mm long with 27 coils. The spacers are 295mm long. In this configuration there was only very light preload (~0.5") with the caps on. Do these dimensions jib with those you folks know for the stock units? In particular, I am curious if the 4.5mm spring wire diameter and 27 coils represents the stock size.

Please let me know if you know :)

Thanks again, folks!
 
#23 ·
The front wheel has sealed bearings (NTN 6202LU Right, NTN 6203LU Left)...earlier I was happy to see this but now not so sure. The Kawi parts manual (which I admit is a homologation of many years of KLRs, shows unsealed bearings in the bike (601B6202UG Right, 601B6203UG Left). I have the spec sheet on the NTNs, but not (yet) for the stockers.

From the manufacturers yellow QC paint dab on the right bearing circlip, it looks like the sealed bearings were stock.

Does anyone have these NTN bearings in their front wheel stock on a 2016 or NE?

Thanks,
James
 
#24 · (Edited)
Curiously, if you try to buy front wheel bearings now for a 2016 KLR650, at Kawi and the other three parts warehouses I checked, you get a 6202UC3 (Right, *Unsealed*) and a 6203UG (Left, Sealed). The 6202UG (Right, Sealed) in the bike now seems to not be available. This just gets more bizarre. Who would want one sealed and one unsealed bearing in their wheels? Unless the now-unavailable 6202UGs were defective? May be backordered...

If I can't get proper OEM replacement parts then investigating and fixing the oscillation is going to be difficult. The bike is only 3 years old(!). In 50 years of motorcycling I have not had these kinds of problem..more fun. 0653 in the morning and I need a beer already...hahahaha!
 
#25 ·
Can't help on the NE spring sizing; I've never actually had one in my hand.

regarding the bearings; you should be able to go to any bearing house or good autosupply and just get the double sealed (-2rs) bearings. Factory is sealed one side only (or it is on the Gen1 anyhow) but I always replace them with double sealed bearings.



Dave
 
#27 · (Edited)
Update: I replaced the steering stem bushings, races, seals, and hardware. Also replaced the swingarm and rocker arm bearings, bushings, seals, and hardware. Torqued everything per the manual, including the castle nut on the stem under the upper triple clamp. Also lowered the fork tubes 20 mm as a test. Still have the oscillations with load or without, though worse with load, of course. All the bearings and bushings I pulled out looked fine, but I am eliminating causes. (peace of mind for $460 in parts all told, including fork parts).

Then I disassembled the forks...now checking the tube run-out and replacing all bushings, seals, dust covers, and circlips. Again, they all looked fine but I am eliminating causes.

I will then assemble the forks and fill with 5W in lieu of 10W in an attempt to get the egregiously over-damped forks to actually compress while riding. (I know the spring is still too stiff...this is just a test) Those of you who have the softer, earlier, forks that bottom....be glad. At least they compress:) Also be glad you have a nut-shaped damper rod top that lets you hold the damper rod while unscrewing the bottom allen bolt. My 2016 has a round damper rod top, and the Kawi special tool for the purpose is square with sharp edges. You put the square against the inside of the round damper top, and, while it works to get the allen off if you push on the tool like he**, it also grates small pieces of metal out of the top of the damper rod. So I get to rinse the inside of the fork to get all the metal shavings out of it after I install the damper rods. This is a seriously ridiculous design, which will destroy the top of the damper rod over time and multiple removals/installations, or the new seal immediately from an errant sliver. What was Kawi thinking?? They had a great design with the earlier nut top!....oh yeah, it is likely cheaper to make the damping rod top round and not have to form the nut shape.....they probably saved at least 0.05 cents ;-) (Oh yeah, and I have to either use a welder or grinder to remove the bottom steering race because there is no room over the lower race to fit ANY tool above it to pop it out...including the Kawi special tool! As an engineer, these kind of design failures drive me crazy. But I tell myself the bike was $6K. Lots of room there to spend some $$ before I hit the price of other bikes. And they aren't perfect, either. 'Nuff on that.

Once back together with the wheel bearings, forks, stem, and the rear suspension eliminated as possible causes of the oscillation, I will check once more for a cracked frame and, if none, I will set the preload to get reasonable rider sag and ride the bike with *no* additional load other than me as the rider (so I have no geometry changes due to using the stock spring with a 100# camping load).

If it doesn't oscillate in this configuration, then I would be confident paying the cash for full cogent.

If it still oscillates in this configuration with just me then it came that way new from Kawi, since I just changed everything that could cause it. My choice then to use the bike would be to 1. change the springs front (softer) and rear (stiffer for camping load) (or go full Cogent damping and springs), toss the hard metal cases in lieu of lighter soft cases and lessen and distribute the camping load closer to the CoG, and hope that this all results in the oscillation at unloaded at least getting no worse when loaded. Choice 2 would be to get rid of the bike.

I know the super stiff spring and stiff damping in the forks is precluding any compression over softer bumps, with or without a camping load on the back, and this is sending high forces through the entire bike. I am of the same mind as dirt road that this is a primary cause of the oscillation, and that then putting a 110# camping load on the racks with most of the weight behind the rear axle (by pannier rack design) just exacerbates the problem tenfold.

Bottom line, I am looking for softer forks, lighter loads, and no change in location of CoG when fully loaded (i.e. load distributed so as to retain same front/rear weight ratio as when unloaded) to solve the problem. If it doesn't, then this bike will be a garden gnome and I will eat the carrots that my wife grows out of it! haha! :-D

Yes, full Cogent right out of the gate might just fix it all with proper spring rates and damping rates for camping loads...but I have to go stepwise like this because I don't want to spend up to $2K on Cogent suspension, only to find out that doesn't fix the problem, and that the real problem is the frame and engineered chassis system is just too weak. I am trying to get "proof of concept" with my tests before I drop any huge coin.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have purchased a 2013.

I will keep you folks posted.
Cheers!
 
#28 ·
It occurred to me......if anyone has stock fork springs from a 2008 to 2013 that they aren't using anymore, I would l like to buy them. Lowering the oil viscosity from 10W to 5W AND putting softer springs in the forks would be a better test than just changing the oil viscosity. I will put a WTB thread in the WTB section tonight.

Thanks!
 
#29 ·
Yeravener,
Even going back to your original posting I wonder if even your new steering bearings are adjusted TOO Snugly. This will cause the bike to Wander at low speeds, because the rider has to slightly over-correct because of the slight friction. You have always referred to it as "wobble", but I wonder if it isn't actually "wander"?
Too soft & spongy of front tire might even exaggerate the problem in dirt.

I once had a young dirt bike customer who went thru about 6 pair of handlebars, because he kept crashing in the corners. One trip down the alley behind my shop was all I needed to be able to feel his bikes problem.

I wish you were closer to Tom Schmitz, who is in Redondo Beach. But member 'campfire' is somewhere near the Bay area, maybe you could send him a PM and ask for a little personal assistance. Some members only need an excuse to go for a ride!
 
#31 · (Edited)
pdwestman, when I installed the new bearings and races I followed the manual procedure for torquing them to seat, backing off, and then torquing them to 4.9Nm. That is less than hand tight, actually. I also lifted the bike and did the "clear the cables and lightly push on the bars", and it met that requirement as well. That said, it is easy enough to loosen the castle nut under the upper triple clamp a smidge and check. I will do that after I get the forks together with some 2011 springs and 5W fork oil, and pull off all the racks and crash bars. Thanks for the reference to campfire...I'll check it out.

I call it an "oscillation". At its worst, in non-flat dirt environment with full camping load, i have to cycle the bars back and forth about 4-6 inches (at bar ends) to counter the "fish swimming" motion of the entire bike. I have to cycle them about 2 times a second. Quite quickly....different symptoms to the overtightened stems that I have experienced in the past. Imagine a 4 foot bar extending horizontally straight out from the back of the bike at seat level, with a 50 pound weight on it. As you ride in dirt this weight would pull side to side of course, from the motion of the bike. (let's ignore vertical movement). As the weight oscillates side to side it would pull the rear end with it and flex the frame, and the rider would have to compensate with the steering. Now speed this up to 2 times per second and you have my problem. Frankly, the closest thing to this I have ever felt is a motorcycle with a cracked frame....but I have checked and found none. After I get the forks on and guards/racks stripped off, I will check the frame and subframe again (having eliminated the stem and swingarm).



Yeravener,

I have a 2015 with 4k miles. I also get a weird hunt or wander in the front end. I just ordered the Cogent DDC and springs for the forks(they were wonderful to deal with BTW). I am hoping this is a drop in a solution I will let you know. After reading this thread I will check the steering head per DXKLR adjustment specs. Might as well check the front rim run out, spokes and balance. I will not get to it for about 3 weeks.

In your post, you mentioned a few times about stiffness in fork travel. I have ridden several different years on all kinds of terrain and I could never say the fork travel was stiff. You might remove the fork brace if you have not already and see if that helps. Please let s know as yo find things.

I am really hoping not to go thru all these gyrations in getting the bike correct.

Moto
I also hope you don't have to go through what I am going through. I suspect most people would just get another bike. I may as well, but I wanted to give the KLR a chance first. I bought the bike at ~800 miles. It is possible that the PO put stiffer fork springs than stock in it, but I have no way to know. I put my spring dimensions (# of coils, length) and wire thickness in the thread above, but no one was able to confirm that their NE front springs had these same dimensions. Wire thickness being the most important parameter..these are the thickest fork springs I have ever seen, street or dirt, in my 45 years of wrenching.

At static rest, my forks are extended 2" more than my friend's 2009 KLR. That is a LOT when the total travel is only 7.9", My fork sag with geared rider (220#) and camping gear (110# including racks) was only ~1.6" no matter how much I bounced on it. Add to this that the damping is such that the fork hydraulically locks on any relatively-high-fork-speed impact like small rocks or embedded logs and the result is I couldn't bottom these if I tried. Thus my current effort of putting softer 2011 springs and 5W oil in the forks....I am trying to get them to move, sag down a bit to change the geometry, and see if this eliminates the oscillation. :)

I had an EM brace on my first trip, as I thought originally thought the forks were flexing. I took it off for my second trip. It made no difference at all with or without.

I spoke with Terry at Cogent for an hour about this problem...he was very helpful and generous with his time. He noted that they haven't had any NE owners come to him with this issue when buying CD suspension, so it seems it is indeed not common, at least at my level of severity. He also thought, as did I, that I needed to get this sorted out BEFORE dropping coin on a new suspension. Let us know how the Cogent install goes. I have decided that if I can't eliminate the oscillation under a no-racks-no-camping-load scenario I will spend no more time and money on this bike. Working 55 hours a week I don't have much time for total teardowns on a 3 year old bike, and summer's passing too quick! (Of course I live in CA so east coast riders would laugh at what I call "winter") ;-)
 
#30 ·
Yeravener,

I have a 2015 with 4k miles. I also get a weird hunt or wander in the front end. I just ordered the Cogent DDC and springs for the forks(they were wonderful to deal with BTW). I am hoping this is a drop in a solution I will let you know. After reading this thread I will check the steering head per DXKLR adjustment specs. Might as well check the front rim run out, spokes and balance. I will not get to it for about 3 weeks.

In your post, you mentioned a few times about stiffness in fork travel. I have ridden several different years on all kinds of terrain and I could never say the fork travel was stiff. You might remove the fork brace if you have not already and see if that helps. Please let s know as yo find things.

I am really hoping not to go thru all these gyrations in getting the bike correct.

Moto
 
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