Kawasaki KLR Forum banner

Laboratory Oil Analysis Thread!

86K views 187 replies 28 participants last post by  mzebley 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Tom Schmitz,
A while back in "Oil Pressure, How Much Ya' Got?", you suggested that you would/did send in a sample! I have not seen it.
I'd like to see it.

So, I'd like to go first.




I will suggest, it looks Excellent considering I have 3000 miles or 1.5 times the Average (1900miles) on this oil. I think I will go to 5000 mile intervals.
Paul
 
See less See more
2
#61 ·
Gordon,
I use 'ZERO' additives in my KLR650 engine oil! It is Genuine Kawasaki 10W40 Motorcycle oil, part# K61021-202A.

I used to use the Kawasaki 20W50 exclusively. Back in about 1977 to 1998 Kawasaki did Not Even sell a 10W40! But for my oil flow "alteration project" I needed to use the 10W40 grade specified in the Service Manuals for testing purposes.
Unless I move to AZ (70-120F), I won't be changing back to 20W50. I no longer believe that 20W50 helps the transmission (of a KLR650 at my temps) in any way. And with a Thermo-Bob installed, my entire engine is running warmer than it used to!

Currently both the Kawasaki 10W40 and the 20W50 are SAE SL, JASO MA and MA2 rated.

What is your current preferred 'flavor' of oil Gordon, I'd love to see the numbers of your report. (Less than $30.00 at BSLabs, including postage.)
 
#62 ·
I am with you on additives, I was just wondering if you tested any oil with additives..

I would use Kawi oil if there was a local dealer, we have no dealer of any kind here so I am sticking with Rotella.
Reason we don't have a dealer is because locals here don't put any wear on there bikes going to the bar once a week. And after they visit the Marijuana shop they don't have any money left... dumb asses.. lol

Welcome to Colorado, "come for the weed, stay for the meth"
 
#63 ·
Gordon,
I'd love to read the numbers from a 3000 mile run on Shell Rotella.

Tom Schmitz bike had piston scuffing issues for unknown reason and his Rotella and Delo results are of ZERO use to this discussion.

We are all waiting for a 'fresh report' after rebuild, with his chosen Wossner Piston!
 
#64 ·
Just change oil today, mix it with other old oil in my drum so that's no good. May send you a sample on the next change.
I do a lot of 5800rpm+ on the highway and would love to see the results..

I will let you know.

Gordon
 
#65 ·
May send you a sample on the next change.
I do a lot of 5800rpm+ on the highway and would love to see the results..

I will let you know.

Gordon
LOL.
Don't send the sample to me! I'm broke, motorcycle dealer economy has been in the pits since 2008 in Wyoming!

I used to think that I rode a lot at 5800-6200 RPM. Less engine vibes.

Then I installed a 'Hardline' digital tach for "testing purposes".
I now think that maybe my engine has spent a better part of its life at 5300-5700 RPM on Deserted asphalt and 4800-5200 RPM in mixed roads and traffic. (Possible 500 rpm Meter Error at higher revs.)
 
#67 ·
Just a Bump

I spent a bit of time over at "Bob is the Oil Guy" this afternoon.
Used Oil Analysis - Motorcycle | Bob Is The Oil Guy

Found a few KLR650 analysis on his 33 pages of M/C forum.

Not a single sample from over there matched, much less surpassed the minimal ppm of wear-metals found in my personal KLR650 with Kawasaki 10W40 petroleum oil.
Not Red Line 10W40 at 2,660 miles in a 20,771 mile unit, nor Mobil 1 15W50 at 3,088 miles in a 16,125 mile unit!

If anything the Unit Number "Badger" on Report Date of 4/26/06 using the Mobil 1 15W50 scares me a bit.
Alum----65
Iron-----42
Copper--35
Silicon--14

The Red Line 10W40 had lower ppm of metals with a higher Silicon--18.
 
#70 · (Edited by Moderator)


Thanks for posting it for me Tom.

What is anyones thoughts about my crankshaft oil control orifice size?
This run was on 2.06mm size. Previous run was on 2.18mm size.

My mileage on this oil, 3000 miles. Universal Average mileage currently about 2100 miles.
 
#71 · (Edited by Moderator)
I just discovered that I could link someone elses attachments from another forum, I hope.

So I will try to give you all the best higher mileage oil report which I have viewed. From 650.net site, courtesy of KLRva.




Divide the wear metals by the 1k traveled.

KLRva-------------------------------------------------------U.A.

17 by 7.86 = 2.16ppm per 1k traveled----Aluminum---27 by 2.0 =13.5ppm

35 by 7.86 = 4.45ppm per 1k traveled----Iron----------24 by 2.0 = 12ppm

27 by 7.86 = 3.43ppm per 1k traveled----Copper-------24 by 2.0 = 12ppm

Edit: Added details about oil and bike.

I recently traveled from Virginia to Hyder, Alaska. The trip covered 7,860 miles. I did not change or add any engine oil during the trip. I used Mobil 1, 15W-50 oil. My KLR has the 692 piston kit, Thermo-Bob and stock gearing. Here is the oil report for the engine oil.
 
#73 ·
Thanks again Tom. When do we get to view your freshest oil report? I was almost 2 months late in submitting / posting. And I have taken a step backwards.

So what is the Biggest issue with the above report, guys & gals?
 
#77 ·
Over the past 2 years & a day there have been an additional 8204 views of this thread.
Current total views, 17,955.

You will notice I'm trying to drive up the post count/interest. :)
 
#79 ·
Tom,
I always felt that changing the oil on a brand new engine or rebuilt engine too early or too many times during the first 500 miles of Break-in was possibly detrimental to the break-in process. The micro-fine particulate may or may not act as a fine polishing compound on transmission gears, to help smooth their operation. That idea maybe in-correct?

On a top-end rebuild we are only hoping to seat the rings to the cylinder hone pattern, the rest of the engine was well broken-in and well maintained, so your second oil change numbers really surprised me as well! I have never had any reason to send a sample of Break-in oil in, to be tested on anything. So I can not even suggest as to what would be considered 'normal'.

Your 2nd report scared me also!

But your 1st of two oil changes (after rebuild) kind of suggests that the 100 mile change was wasteful of dollars & resources. Maybe the factories do have it correct, 1st oil change at 500-600 miles?
 
#80 ·
Yeah, it probably was wasteful. I have never sent a break-in sample, either, nor seen one. My thought process was that the rings were pretty well broken in by 100 miles of deliberate use so dumping the oil wasn't hurting anything.

As to the waste of resources, well, it was Rotella. I get that for $12/gallon so that was about $7 worth of oil. It gets recycled, too, so someone else gets to use it for something else. Dunnno what, haven't seen RayLube in years....

By dumping the oil at 100 miles I had the peace of mind that anything that was bad came out. It cost me $25 to find out there wasn't anything bad in there. I knew I did the build clean, but you never know.

As to how clean it was, I don't know if the accumulation of wear particles would be linear or not. If it is anywhere near linear then should all the numbers be multiplied times 20 to make the numbers equivalent to a 2000 mile change? Clearly stuff started to come loose on the second oil, so would the second oil change have been, for example, aluminum = 70? Would it be good, bad, or no matter to leave that extra crud in? Or would it have been more because there was more stuff running around in the oil?

Beats me.

I'm more interested in the next Kawasaki report.
 
#81 ·
Bluehighways would of used the 100 mile oil in his lawn mower. :)

I think everyone reading this would pass on the offer to even use the 1600 mile oil as chain lube. (I'll bet that it would clean a dirty drive chain quite well tho, or oil the OEM foam air filter.) Remember when we used to boil chains in oil? They came out 'very clean'.

I found it really odd that the 100 mile oil only had 4 ppm of Moly! Then the 1600 mile oil had 65 ppm?
Was it not from the same jug of Shell Rotella 10w30? Were either jugs JASO MA labeled? We have been warned by the bike manufactures (for 30 years) to avoid the thinner automotive grades because of the potential use of Too Much "Energy Conserving" super-slippery additives in the automotive oils, if not dual labeled.
But the Kawasaki 10W40 is right there with most of your samples at 64 ppm of moly.

From the earlier oil reports, you have used & tested in this order, Rotella 15W40 / Delo 15W40 / Rotella 15W40 / Rotella 10W30 / Rotella 10W30 / Kawasaki 10W40 & now on second running of Kawasaki 10W40, correct? Kind of odd that the 3rd sample & especially the 4th with the Shell Rotella 10W30 were low on the molybdenum.
Liftrat's YamaLube 10W40 was very low on molybdenum also.
 
#82 ·
I have no explanation for that moly number on the 100 miles sample. It's just odd. Both samples came largely from the same jug, though it was a gallon jug and a quart bottle.

As far as I know, the T5 10W30 is not JASO MA certified.
 
#83 ·
Here is a theory, suggested by my friend Mike "Randall64", and supported by some of my own experiences with engine oils, gear oils & even air filter oils.

Separation of the additives (or even liquids), due to gravity. This why I really like white oil bottles, one can see what is still on the bottom when looking inside of them.

Molybdenum as used in engine oil is a powdered solid, correct? Therefore it could settle out of an oil setting on the shelf undisturbed.
The top half of the jug may not have had much moly in suspension. It had possibly, mostly settled into the bottom half and onto the bottom of the jug.
Suggesting that it may indeed be a 'good thing' to shake, shake, shake our engine oils before use.

We should also shake our sticky air filter oils which use an evaporating thinner for quicker application. The thinner floats to the top of the bottle, leaving the thicker stickier stuff in the bottom.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gaff
#84 ·
That makes sense, Paul.

Now here's where I have to make an embarrassing admission. I deliberately bought the T5 10W-30. I had a specific reason for buying it. There was something I wanted to investigate with it.

I can't remember what it was.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pdwestman
#85 ·
Was it maybe oil temperature and/or cam oil pressure at X ambient air temp climbing up out of the valley?

Speaking of which, did you by any chance notice slightly higher oil temp with the 10W30 than with the Kawasaki 10W40?
 
#86 ·
Oil temp is really variable, so it is hard to say. Especially with the limited amount of data I have on the 10W-30. If I had to characterize it I'd say the Kawsaki 10W-40 runs in the low teens while the Rotella 10W-30 ran in the high teens. Say, 209°/214° vs 217°/221°.

Whatever I was after on the 10W-30, I remember thinking, at one point, "Maybe I should try straight 30 weight". It had something to do with thinner oil.
 
#87 ·
I was going through the logic on Paul's site Paul Westman's Mods to Fight Oil Burning again today.

If you open the two banjo bolts to the cams and DO NOT drill the one to the transmission larger, would you not be volumetrically reducing the amount of oil to the transmission (similar to adding the restriction) without all the extra machining ~ or ~ add the restriction to the banjo bolt heading to the crank, if it needs to be reduces more. Maybe less skill needed while realizing the benefits>

I get the possibility of the unfiltered oil, and may someday make that mod (big pucker), but until then, can we theorize about the benefit of simply doing the cross-drilling for "Beg of Ext oil lines" and "head feeding Cams" and ignoring the "Left-side of case feeding transmission?"
 

Attachments

#88 · (Edited)
Sherman,
#1, The Souperdoo web site is Not mine. It is Tom Schmitz's site. I refer people to it very often. He writes 5 times better than I & 10 times quicker. He followed my every move and assisted a lot. He installed almost enough gauges and temp sensors on his bike to double check my basic findings that we kidded him about being nearly ready to take flight.

#2, The transmission banjo bolt was replaced (with #92153-0627) or could/should be drilled on one side only to 1/8th, imo only.
The KLX650 1993-1996 used 3 double drilled banjo bolts #92150-1641.
IMO only, leaving the existing banjo bolt #92002-1170 with its single tiny little 1/16th inch hole would do no harm, because the very first banjo bolt by the starter motor increased the oil flow to the head & transmission by 3-5 times.

#3, We don't add any restriction into any "banjo bolt heading to the crank". Because the crankshaft does not get its oil supply from the external oil pipe.
The crankshaft oil supply hole is the 6:00 port in the throat of the oil filter cavity. DO NOT allow metal chips to flow down that hole when draining the oil filter cavity!

#4, If I interpret the first 3 Blackstone Lab reports correctly on my bike, the 4 most basic mods are probably responsible for the reduction of wear metals ppm in 2nd & 3rd reports. As I had not yet performed the 100% oil filtration mod yet.

In my over confidence of things, I performed the 100% filtration & installed the 2.06mm crankshaft orifice at nearly the same time. Report #4 shows me that the 2.06mm crankshaft orifice is Too Small. But #4 report was still better than Blackstones UA for all KLR650 samples used in the UA files.

#5, Many have left the lubrication system 100% stock & standard and achieved 100,000 - 202,000 miles already.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gaff
#89 ·
#1 Sorry Tom -- I'll get it correct eventually - even if I have to come get some of that hot coffee.

#2 More to the question but not quite the theory I was looking for.

#3 I get it better now - sorry for the cranial density :-D

#4 hmmm - I was thinking about just doing the two cross Drillings and not the single to the transmission ~ do you think the tranny needs the additional oil? (I believe there is a mention that 90% of the benefit can be realized without the 100% filtration mod).

#5 True - but better is better right? /... thanks!
 
#90 ·
The transmission doesn't need more oil. What could use more oil is the upper balancer bearing.

The upper balancer bearing is splash lubed; it has no directly provided source of oil.

There is a misconception, I think, that the oil is splashed up to the balancer by the oil coming off of the crank (and, thus, upper bearing failure,'Ya musta run it low on oil. Tsk, tsk.").

The transmission is in the way of any oil splashing up to the upper balancer bearing.

Virtually all of the oil that the upper balancer bearing receives is coming from the spray flying off of the transmission.

All of that comes from the last banjo.

Upper balancer bearing failure is not very common, but it is usually catastrophic.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top