Cooling system air - Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum
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post #1 of 6 Old 01-15-2015, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
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Cooling system air

In discussion on another site regarding installing a second radiator, the owner was intending not to use an overflow tank which surprised me. I thought everyone knew about the effects of entrained air but apparently not. Just for reference, the overflow tank is used to accept expanded coolant volume during heating and to return the coolant to the radiator when cooled. Without the overflow tank, the radiator must be run with sufficient air space to provide for expansion. If the radiator is completely filled with coolant, as with race bikes, the coolant will expand, dumping the excess coolant volume. This will be no problem during the race and on cooling the radiator will be refilled. Problems occur if the radiator is not refilled because the air pulled into the radiator during cooling/contraction will mix into the coolant. As a rule of thumb, 2% entrained air by volume will reduce cooling effect by 8%. 4% trapped air by volume reduces cooling by 38%.

Thought it might be of interest.
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post #2 of 6 Old 01-15-2015, 08:43 PM
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[QUOTE=Normk;377930]In discussion on another site regarding installing a second radiator, the owner was intending not to use an overflow tank which surprised me.

Problems occur if the radiator is not refilled because the air pulled into the radiator during cooling/contraction will mix into the coolant. As a rule of thumb, 2% entrained air by volume will reduce cooling effect by 8%. 4% trapped air by volume reduces cooling by 38%.

Thought it might be of interest.[/QUOTE)
I did Not know, that the effect was that pronounced!
Thanks Norm.

Almost negates the benefit of the second radiator, considering minus 38% of Both Radiators, doesn't it.

pdwestman
Modify at "YOUR OWN RISK"!

Still riding my 1987 KL650-A1. 85,000+ miles & counting
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post #3 of 6 Old 01-15-2015, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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Sure does. It's always strange that people think they can out design the engineers....then again that's a funny thing to say to you, who just did.



[quote=pdwestman;378010]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Normk View Post
In discussion on another site regarding installing a second radiator, the owner was intending not to use an overflow tank which surprised me.

Problems occur if the radiator is not refilled because the air pulled into the radiator during cooling/contraction will mix into the coolant. As a rule of thumb, 2% entrained air by volume will reduce cooling effect by 8%. 4% trapped air by volume reduces cooling by 38%.

Thought it might be of interest.[/QUOTE)
I did Not know, that the effect was that pronounced!
Thanks Norm.

Almost negates the benefit of the second radiator, considering minus 38% of Both Radiators, doesn't it.
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post #4 of 6 Old 02-26-2015, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Normk View Post
----------- It's always strange that people think they can out design the engineers....then again that's a funny thing to say to you, who just did.
Normk,
I have thought about this statement, since the day that it was first posted.

I have NOT out designed the Kawasaki engineers, with any of my (to date) lubrication system modifications to my '87 KLR650 or even Clarks '90 KLR650. (Clarks bike being the First to receive the oil Filter Cavity mod. To the best of our knowledge.)

I have Only Implemented their newer knowledge from newer models into their predecessors old Original Design.
They (Kawasaki) could EASILY incorporate Every Single Alteration which I have pioneered/tested, into the Existing Assembly Line production process.
Including my (up-coming) Secondary, crankshaft oil Inlet Filter.

But, like Eagle Manufacturing's improved Doo-Hickey and Torsion Spring, or Watt-mans Thermo-Bob/ Thermo-Bob 2, the question is, WILL THEY? If so, WHEN?

Tom might wish to move this post/copy this post into "Oil Pressure, How much ya' got".

pdwestman
Modify at "YOUR OWN RISK"!

Still riding my 1987 KL650-A1. 85,000+ miles & counting
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post #5 of 6 Old 02-27-2015, 12:16 AM Thread Starter
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I couldn't imagine that Kawasaki would use the Thermo-bob approach since this is a product intended for installation by the general public. They would almost certainly take the approach I used which is to drill the head and the water pump for elbows, nipples and a 5/16" or 3/8" hose. Since it would use the same sized thermostat (excepting 195 F) the cost to them would likely be less than $10.00 including the production machining.

As for if and when....my guess is never because they're selling many and the KLR's lifespan is likely coming to an end unless they go EFI, TPS & ignition mapping, plus catalytic converter. Anyone else's guess is likely to be more accurate. ;-)



Quote:
Originally Posted by pdwestman View Post
Normk,
I have thought about this statement, since the day that it was first posted.

I have NOT out designed the Kawasaki engineers, with any of my (to date) lubrication system modifications to my '87 KLR650 or even Clarks '90 KLR650. (Clarks bike being the First to receive the oil Filter Cavity mod. To the best of our knowledge.)

I have Only Implemented their newer knowledge from newer models into their predecessors old Original Design.
They (Kawasaki) could EASILY incorporate Every Single Alteration which I have pioneered/tested, into the Existing Assembly Line production process.
Including my (up-coming) Secondary, crankshaft oil Inlet Filter.

But, like Eagle Manufacturing's improved Doo-Hickey and Torsion Spring, or Watt-mans Thermo-Bob/ Thermo-Bob 2, the question is, WILL THEY? If so, WHEN?

Tom might wish to move this post/copy this post into "Oil Pressure, How much ya' got".
Normk is offline  
post #6 of 6 Old 03-02-2015, 04:04 PM
OverDrive
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Normk View Post
In discussion on another site regarding installing a second radiator, the owner was intending not to use an overflow tank which surprised me. I thought everyone knew about the effects of entrained air but apparently not. Just for reference, the overflow tank is used to accept expanded coolant volume during heating and to return the coolant to the radiator when cooled. Without the overflow tank, the radiator must be run with sufficient air space to provide for expansion. If the radiator is completely filled with coolant, as with race bikes, the coolant will expand, dumping the excess coolant volume. This will be no problem during the race and on cooling the radiator will be refilled. Problems occur if the radiator is not refilled because the air pulled into the radiator during cooling/contraction will mix into the coolant. As a rule of thumb, 2% entrained air by volume will reduce cooling effect by 8%. 4% trapped air by volume reduces cooling by 38%.

Thought it might be of interest.
I wished I knew how to cross threads with a quote from another section.
Because I think this is Directly Related to the other comment. I may be incorrect.
http://www.klrforum.com/showpost.php...62&postcount=6

ps, Now the dual radiator with Thermo-Bob and no coolant recovery tank portion of the link is gone, and that's ok.

pdwestman
Modify at "YOUR OWN RISK"!

Still riding my 1987 KL650-A1. 85,000+ miles & counting

Last edited by pdwestman; 03-02-2015 at 06:42 PM. Reason: post script added
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