My KLR feels loose on gravel - Page 7 - Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum
KLR & Other Motorcycle Related Discussion Grab a seat and discuss whatever you like about the KLR or other related topics. Within reason.

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post #61 of 86 Old 08-27-2018, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
You made a fairly extreme assertion that motorcycles can’t hydroplane under any rideable condition. Not sure exactly what that is, but motorcycles can and do hydroplane under rideable conditions as I’ve had hit happen. It dodsn’t take 6 inches of water. 1” will do fine at 70 MPH on the interstate....
I think you are being deliberately obtuse. Most, I think, would not consider riding a street bike (a reasonable assumption, given its travel on the interstate) at 70mph into 1" of standing water to be a rideable condition. The very amount of water put up would preclude seeing where you are going.

I am happy that you survived, though I doubt you hydroplaned. If you had hydroplaned you would have gone down immediately, as there is no way to keep a bike upright in a situation where there are forces at work on the tires, yet they have no traction. Once traction is lost and the bike begins to roll, yaw, or both, it's going down. If it decelerates enough to come back into traction it will high side.

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...F=ma is a fundamental concept in fluid mechanics. Even Wiki knows that....
I think you are being deliberately obtuse. The Second Law of Motion is fundamental, yes. However, there is more at work in the field of fluid mechanics than the simple formula 'f=ma'. Beyond explaining fundamental concepts there is not much in FD that will be solved with that equation.

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post #62 of 86 Old 08-27-2018, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
I think you are being deliberately obtuse. Most, I think, would not consider riding a street bike (a reasonable assumption, given its travel on the interstate) at 70mph into 1" of standing water to be a rideable condition. The very amount of water put up would preclude seeing where you are going.

I am happy that you survived, though I doubt you hydroplaned. If you had hydroplaned you would have gone down immediately, as there is no way to keep a bike upright in a situation where there are forces at work on the tires, yet they have no traction. Once traction is lost and the bike begins to roll, yaw, or both, it's going down. If it decelerates enough to come back into traction it will high side.



I think you are being deliberately obtuse. The Second Law of Motion is fundamental, yes. However, there is more at work in the field of fluid mechanics than the simple formula 'f=ma'. Beyond explaining fundamental concepts there is not much in FD that will be solved with that equation.
You will have to talk with the highway designers in NC which is where we (three of us) hit a patch of water probably 1-2” deep while riding in a heavy downpour. The water was probably 10-15’ across and the wake from my front tire pushed my feet off the pegs and the front wheel hydroplaned which is easily felt as the bars feel like they became disconnected momentarily. And, no, you do’t instantly crash as it takes time for a bike to yaw and roll and the time spent in the deep water was thankfully quite brief.

Conservation of momentum is a key concept in hydroplaning, which certainly is only a small part of the field of FD. Given your expertise in FD, please explain which other FD fundamentals are relevant to a tire moving through water at high speed.
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post #63 of 86 Old 08-27-2018, 09:26 PM
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May I suggest, that we all should get back to the basic fundamentals of dual-sport tires at real world speeds on dual-sport type routes on dual-sport type tires?
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post #64 of 86 Old 08-28-2018, 09:08 AM
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tread·lex·i·a


/tredˈleksēə/


noun

Unable to distinguish tire tread orientation. (q.v., dyslexia).



DISCLAIMER: I may myself suffer from BOTH maladies mentioned!
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post #65 of 86 Old 08-28-2018, 10:11 AM
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I just want to chime in here and say that my Mitas 07's rock in the rain and on North Carolinas shtty roads to boot!
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post #66 of 86 Old 08-28-2018, 12:26 PM
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@Damocles, the CTA tires follow the convention that I have always thought was correct in tire mounting, which is as Paul describes. This convention is also found on the sport bike tires that I have had; my Michelin Pilots work this way and all of the directional tires I that have seen do as well. The mnemonic, for me, is "when yer sittin' on the bike and lookin' at the tars, the "V"s are pointin' atcha".

I had always thought that this convention was universal, but I think I am going to have to go in search of proper tires that defy this convention. There may be a learning opportunity.

I know that the Kenda K761 front doesn't follow this convention, but after communicating with Kenda and thinking about the who, what, where, and why of Kenda, I've come to believe that it is an error on their part*. I think it falls, at least somewhat, into the category of 'buying forks from people that eat with sticks'.
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Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 08-28-2018 at 12:30 PM. Reason: *Especially since the tire doesn't work for beans when mounted according to the directional arrow.
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post #67 of 86 Old 08-28-2018, 01:13 PM
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In the learned discourse on this forum, Newton's SECOND LAW OF MOTION has been mentioned.

I now share an event involving Newton's FIRST LAW OF MOTION . . . avert your eyes NOW, gentle readers, if you wish to avoid the narrative!

On another forum, an inmate rationalized the KLR650's modest power output to some extent by claiming, "The doohickey (counterbalancer system) alone uses TWO HORSEPOWER!"

I disagreed, invoking Newton's FIRST LAW OF MOTION:
Quote:
An object at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by an external force. An object in motion continues in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an external force.
(Or, words to that general effect.)

I reasoned (?), if Mr. Newton isn't FUNNING us, after the balancer system (shafts/weights/chain/etc.) is in MOTION, the only power used sustaining the motion is that used to overcome bearing friction, chain friction, and air resistance. I doubted this compensatory power expended by the balancer system approached anything near two horsepower.

I was branded a heretic; accused of creating a fantasy, "perpetual motion" machine; and pilloried by many unkind words from loyal supporters of the inmate who posted the two-horsepower budget operating the doohickey.

Still, I could think of no external forces acting upon the doohickey (balancer system) than those of bearing friction, chain friction, and air resistance. Thus, my heart and mind remained unchanged. If Mr. Newton withstood the criticism, so can I!
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post #68 of 86 Old 08-28-2018, 04:32 PM
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I think what you have not factored in is Iron Butterfly's Second Corollary to Newton's First Law.

"Any contraption of a Rube Goldberg Nature having two or more bellcranks, entrapment levers, escapements, eccentrics, weights, or other booger-brained mechanical contrivances designed to do a job of work more easily done in a manner designed by an Estonian (or not at all) shall be declared to consume 5% of the power provided by the unfortunate mechanism saddled with its existence".

I'm sure that is where the two horsepower figure came from...

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post #69 of 86 Old 08-28-2018, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
I think what you have not factored in is Iron Butterfly's Second Corollary to Newton's First Law.

"Any contraption of a Rube Goldberg Nature having two or more bellcranks, entrapment levers, escapements, eccentrics, weights, or other booger-brained mechanical contrivances designed to do a job of work more easily done in a manner designed by an Estonian (or not at all) shall be declared to consume 5% of the power provided by the unfortunate mechanism saddled with its existence".

I'm sure that is where the two horsepower figure came from...
Premise seems valid!

As to, "two horsepower," that's close to 1100 ft-lb/second, IIRC. That much power seems excessive to me, even for one of Rube Goldberg's contraptions within the confines of a KLR650 engine!

EDIT: But . . . two horsepower is indeed about 5 % of the optimistic output of the KLR650 engine!

Last edited by Damocles; 08-28-2018 at 07:12 PM.
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post #70 of 86 Old 08-28-2018, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
I think what you have not factored in is Iron Butterfly's Second Corollary to Newton's First Law.

"Any contraption of a Rube Goldberg Nature having two or more bellcranks, entrapment levers, escapements, eccentrics, weights, or other booger-brained mechanical contrivances designed to do a job of work more easily done in a manner designed by an Estonian (or not at all) shall be declared to consume 5% of the power provided by the unfortunate mechanism saddled with its existence".

I'm sure that is where the two horsepower figure came from...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
Premise seems valid!

As to, "two horsepower," that's close to 1100 ft-lb/second, IIRC. That much power seems excessive to me, even for one of Rube Goldberg's contraptions within the confines of a KLR650 engine!

EDIT: But . . . two horsepower is indeed about 5 % of the optimistic output of the KLR650 engine!
And what do these thoughts have to do with, "My KLR feels loose on gravel"? Other than driving up all of our post counts?

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