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Yes it's about oil.

14K views 54 replies 12 participants last post by  pdwestman 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Thanks for the Blackstone report, which confirmed what I thought. The oil level rather than the oil brand is by far the most important element with respect to engine wear.

One aspect that I would like to see a comparison on is high temperature's affect on the different oils. Synthetic oils are supposedly superior with respect to resisting high temps, but is one brand a clear standout? And what is the maximum operating temperature for synthetic oil?

Best,

Jason
 
#3 · (Edited)
The oil level rather than the oil brand is by far the most important element with respect to engine wear.
The only TRACEABLE lubricant-related maintenance issues or malfunctions/failures I know of were a consequence of the lack thereof (of lubricant).

EXCEPTION: Some have reported devastating, heartbreaking horror of clutch failure of the otherwise robust KLR clutch from using the dread, "energy-conserving," or "friction-modifying" motor oils. Verifiable data supporting such issues' existence remains elusive.

:)

(Just remembered; must give a drink of MOTOREX (Swiss; $ l9/liter) to my Austrian princesses!)
 
#5 ·
Wrong, absolutely wrong.

Kawasaki 10W-40 is the best oil for the KLR.

What fool would put diesel oil in a gas motor, anyway?

Sheer madness.

SMFH.
 
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#7 ·
Here we go "again"!
 
#9 ·
Oil hilarity often comes from BMW. Back when I bought my RT they had a deal with Castrol. Castrol provided all the oil for factory fills and BMW recommended, in the owners manual, that the owners use Castrol oils.

That deal went away a couple of years later and was replaced by a similar deal with Shell. Nothing had changed with teh motorcycles, but now Shell oils were recommended.

I figured that meant that I ought to use Rotella in the RT, so I do.

AHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!

Oil, schmoil. Honey colored and slippery will do in most cases.

But, really, we are seeing better oil analyses with Kawasaki oil than we have seen with Rotella.
 
#10 ·
Well, I currently have a sample of Motul 7100 10w40 at Blackstone awaiting testing. Just filled Black Betty with T6 15W40 and will sample that too when I change it over to Kawasaki 10w40. I figure the Motul will probably show the most wear metal of the 3 as I dumped the factory fill at 500 miles to get rid of the break in oil and noticed lots of silver in that so I'm sure some of that will carry over in the Motul fill along with the rest of the parts finally wearing in. High hopes for the T6 15W40 as it is super inexpensive @ $19 per gallon down the street at WalMart. At that price who needs extended drain intervals? I do believe the Kawasaki oil probably carries the better additive package of the 3 , but if the Rotella turns out to be even slightly above average I'll probably continue with it if only because at under $20 per gallon I can afford to dump it every 1,500 -2,000 miles or so. I think my owners manual called for a 7,500 mile interval, but to me that's a lot of use for 2.2 qts of oil in a motorcycle. I'll let you all know how the Motul tests when I get the report back, but I won't be spending $45 per gallon again on oil. I just can't force myself to leave it in long enough to make it cost effective.
 
#14 ·
Well, I currently have a sample of Motul 7100 10w40 at Blackstone awaiting testing.

, but if the Rotella turns out to be even slightly above average I'll probably continue with it if only because at under $20 per gallon I can afford to dump it every 1,500 -2,000 miles or so. I think my owners manual called for a 7,500 mile interval, but to me that's a lot of use for 2.2 qts of oil in a motorcycle. I'll let you all know how the Motul tests when I get the report back, but I won't be spending $45 per gallon again on oil. I just can't force myself to leave it in long enough to make it cost effective.
PaddyD,
Part of the reason for my Oil Analysis Thread was to encourage owners to Quit wasting perfectly fine engine oil by changing TOO Often.

I was glad to read that you ran the original factory oil the full 500-600 miles before doing its 1st oil change, unlike the klr650.darknet site that encouraged new owners to perform 3 - 4 oil changes in the 1st 1000 miles. Thereby increasing the likely hood of new owners stripping or worse yet Fracturing the oil drain boss times 3.

The first engine oil change can easily run 2500 miles to the 3000 mile mark. And then one can run 3000 - 5000 mile intervals forever there after. But "KLRva"s Mobil 1 15W50 oil report does show that even 7500 mile oil changes are possible with High Quality oil in a Healthy KLR650 engine.
 
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#11 · (Edited)
Is FAILURE to use the MOST PERFECT OIL known to mankind for the KLR (some say, Kawasaki oil; others, AMSOIL, etc.) COMMITTING the UNFORGIVABLE SIN of . . . ENGINE ABUSE?????????????

What are the MAINTENANCE CONSEQUENCES of feeding a KLR less-than-the best LUBRICANT? For example, how many miles and operational hours are SACRIFICED for the cruel and insensitive act of NOT using the ONE PERFECT OIL in a KLR?

Would a FRIENDLY, and PERSONAL, analysis by the convivial Blackstone analysts answer the question?

Motor oil, even "SYNTHETIC" ones, depend on (dare I use the term?) FOSSIL FUELS (whose use dooms the planet earth to total extinction in 10-12 years). So . . . why should motorcyclists be complicit in DESTROYING THE PLANET? (How do synthetic lubricants use fossil fuels? First, petroleum is the base for many so-called "synthetics." Otherwise, the refining and chemical processes necessary use POWER produced from the dreaded and deadly fossil fuels (oil, coal, natural gas) in the manufacturing process.)

Alternative (or, how to save the world to the satisfaction of concerned "environmentalists"): Use WHALE OIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whale oil possesses unique characteristics; long used, for example, by watchmakers. Why not bottle the lubricant and sell it to motorcyclists? Absolutely, ZERO "carbon footprint," the lethal umbra covering our present-day energy practices. No subsidy to the evil fossil fuel industry if this "green," natural lubricant is used.

But, you ask . . . what about the propulsion systems of the SHIPS used to harvest the whales? Oil- or coal-fired vessels remain complicit in their pollution processes; "green" folk run, screaming, from the thought of nuclear power in any form . . . THUS, we shall return to the use of WIND POWER; only sailing ships shall be used to hunt and transport whales used for fuel and lubricant purposes. (If heat is necessary for producing whale oil yield, previously-refined whale oil will be used as a heat source for this purpose.)

Why wind-powered sailing ships? Because the TRAINS, replacing internal-combustion engine-powered conveyances and all airplanes, cannot maneuver successfully about the ocean wide, where whales are found; sea winds have no carbon footprint.

I await meticulous Blackstone analyses of whale oil samples submitted from KLR use (special interest in krill content).

-----------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Another advantage of whale oil: A RENEWABLE resource (unlike depletable fossil fuels). Through animal husbandry, "herds" of whales can be managed not unlike cattle herds today. WAIT! Bad example. I forgot: We shall have no cattle in the brave, new GREEN world of our future! Maybe, domesticated whales, as in contemporary farm-raised salmon enterprises?
 
#16 ·
The KLR runs, at most, 215*F. That is with ambients well into triple digits and running at freeway speeds. Normally it is closer to 200*F.

I'm trying to get it up to 225*F.

Measurement of temperature is at the oil pump outlet, which approximates sump temperature.
 
#19 ·
Very glad to read of your bikes 180,000 miles + on any and every oil available from where ever!

How much is a boat ride for a rider & bike from Australia to India or Africa? And back to home, if there is an appreciable difference?
 
#21 ·
Pdwestman. Sorry I can't really answer your question accurately about shipping costs out of Australia to India or Africa as I've never tried either. My two shipments out of Australia have been to Chile and South Korea - both were around US$2000 including crating. Note these were both by air freight as nowadays, with so many wide body planes flying the world, there is often not a huge cost saving in using sea freight but there is always a huge time penalty and much higher risk of unexpected delays.

One issue to always consider is additional costs at the receiving end. With sea freight there tends to be much higher than with air freight, and seen often largely unpredictable. Normally at the airport I expect to pay $200-300 to get my bike back- a mix of warehouse and customs fees. The one time I freighted by sea back into Australia the total in country charges at the port were US800 totally negating the freight cost saving.

For what it's worth I've now done five long distance air freight movements of the bike. The cost for each have been in the US$2000 -$2500 region so I suggest that as a budgeting figure.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk
 
#27 ·
maverick9611, Have you ever considered sending a 5000 mile used sample of your chosen Amsoil into BSL to see if you are getting the performance Out of Your Oil that Amsoil advertises?

I would love to read a 5000 mile or even a 3000 mile KLR650 Amsoil report in the Oil Analysis Thread!
If you are really confident in your chosen oils performance, run it to the 7500 mile mark. We can divide the miles travelled into the ppm to compare ppm per 1000miles travelled very readily.

https://www.klrforum.com/623481-post71.html
 
#30 ·
There are two 5000 mile runs and two 3000 mile runs in this BSL report on my bike with Kawasaki petroleum oil used. https://www.klrforum.com/622345-post70.html
There is also the 7500+ mile Mobil 1 BSL report to check ones sample against. https://www.klrforum.com/623481-post71.html

Or one can simply run a mere 2000 miles & compare directly to the BSL Universal Averages 2000 mile averaged runs.
One needs to always look at the silicone, silicon, silica ppm count to be certain there is no abnormal issue with-in the engine.

I encourage everyone to take a sample and have a real look at their engine oil and the engine it is being used in. Just pick a mileage, 2000, 3000, 5000, 7500 miles.

IMO, any Healthy KLR650 with over 10,000 in-service miles using any oil and a properly serviced air filter could be fairly compared to my BSL reports, as easily as I compare my report numbers to the BSL UA numbers or against anyone elses BSL numbers.
 
#31 ·
Got my oil report back from Blackstone last night. If I knew how to post it up I would, but here's a brief summary.
Wear metals were high. They tell me that is normal and will go down after a few oil changes and the parts finish wearing in.
What shocked me was the viscosity had deteriorated so much in only 1,000 miles of use. Evidently that KLR engine sheared the hell out of it. So much for the super ester synthetics being able to handle shear . Quite the opposite from what Motul advertizes. I have a bit over a qt left in the jug so it's looking like I may have the only Briggs powered lawn mover with a crank case full of Motul Ester 10W40. Going to run the Rotella T6 1,500 miles or so and send it off to be looked at.
 
#33 ·
...If I knew how to post it up I would,...

@PaddyD,

You can send it to me and I'll process it and post it. What I do is convert it to a .pdf, use Acrobat Pro to redact the sensitive info, then save it as an image file, upload it to flickr, and publish.

You could also save it as an image file and redact it in a photo editor.

If you want me to post it up for you, send it to the e-mail address below.
 
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#32 ·
Until Ponce de Leon markets oil under his brand, I doubt any particular oil used in a KLR650 extends its engine service life extensively, even measurably, beyond the durability offered by Kawasaki-recommended lubricants.

But . . . that's probably just ME! :)

That said . . . I expect continuation of interminable Quixotic searches (or quests, if you prefer), for the ONE TRUE OIL (perhaps used to lubricate the hinges of the Ark of the Covenant).
 
#36 ·
2 things about using synthetics in motorcycles. I believe synthetics produce less sludge formation than conventional so there's that. The other is, it's conventional wisdom handed down from out grandfathers that low-mileage engines need to have the oil changed once a year regardless. But we no longer have our grandfathers' technology. Oils are completely different and the crankcase is pretty much sealed. So how does synthetic oil or even conventional break down while it sits? I don't believe it does, anymore than you have a jug of oil sitting on your garage shelf and you don't throw it away if you haven't used it in a year.
 
#38 ·
So how does synthetic oil or even conventional break down while it sits? I don't believe it does, anymore than you have a jug of oil sitting on your garage shelf and you don't throw it away if you haven't used it in a year.
Correct; the idea that oil deteriorates from sitting is something that the automotive industry has planted in our heads to help sell more service appointments. My Jaguar has a 16,000 mile oil change interval.....OR one year whatever comes first. So far it has had the oil changed every year for the past 4 years and I have a total of 11,000 miles on the car. Last year I put just over 1100 miles on the car and dutifully took it in for it's annual oil change. You'll never convince me that there was anything wrong with the oil with 1100 miles on it though.....


Dave
 
#37 ·
I have a 2009 KLR 650, just past 70,700 miles. When I got the bike with 2000 miles on it the oil had be changed once at a dealer. Since then I had only run Rotella T 15-40 non-synthetic. I had the oil tested twice, 1st was a round 12,000, 2nd around 20,000. Both test showed what was considered normal wear metals, and the oil itself was withing acceptable shear levels at 5000 mile change intervals. so I haven't had it tested since. Compression is good, shifts good, clutch doesn't slip, and I still get better than 58 mpg average. I check the magnetic plug for metal at every oil change, so far, so good! I changed to Castrol 20w-50 last summer, the clutch acted different so I went back to Rotella.Maybe I should have the oil tested again?
 
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#41 ·
Probably there's nothing sinister about the oil industry telling us we have to change oil once a year regardless of mileage. I think it's a carryover that they are happy to let us keep believing. In the old days crankcases and the oil within were open to the environment so with changes in temp and humidity you had condensation and acids forming. Straight weight oils were crude and had no additives.

As late as the early '80s brake fluid needed to be flushed every year or two or it turned black and formed sludge. I've never seen anything published but now brake fluid stays clear indefinitely.
 
#42 ·
My 2 cents.
While the oil sitting on your shelf in a container will still be viable for probably years, the oil in your engine all winter after a summer's worth of riding contains acids, moisture and other unwanted things. Acidic oil causes micro pitting in things like bearings and cam lobes. H2O in the oil can cause rust inside the engine. I pulled the clutch basket on an old Honda and it was coated with rust. If you only plan on keeping a vehicle a few years no problem for you, but the poor sap that you sell it to then might not be getting what he thinks he is.
Lastly, when I change my oil at the end of the season ( call me anal) I first add some form of stabilizer to the gas. I like Sea foam. I then go for my last ride and make sure I get her good and hot for at least 1/2 hr or so. Basically I ride the hell out of it. Then dump the oil and refil. I then drain the carb bowl, pull the enrichener or choke fire it till it sucks out all the remaining gas and dies. She then sleeps with clean fresh oil. It won't kill it short term, but if you store it with used oil year after year it adds up.
 
#43 ·
I've seen jellied brake fluid scum on the sides of several 5 - 10 year old motorcycle & atv master cylinders. And others that were relatively fine at 15 - 20 years.

The only real reason for engine oil to need changing once a year regardless of LOW mileage would be moisture build-up from not riding / driving the vehicle far enough to thoroughly Warm-Up the engine & its oil completely, IMHO. Say 30 minutes or 20 miles after most start-ups to evaporate the moisture.
Check my last oil analysis report dates, on the 4th report. I had purposely went thru the winters with the 2nd, 3rd & 4th oil changes.

Sounds to me like Dave Pelletier could extend his Jaguar oil changes to at least once every 5 - 10 years and still be plenty secure in the longevity of his engine life. Because I'll bet he drives it 50 - 100 km if he even starts it up. :)
 
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#47 · (Edited)
Many folks believe that the annual oil change interval recommendation is some sort of scheme to generate revenue for either the car/motorcycle manufacturer or the oil company.

I don't believe this to be the case. Instead, the annual oil change recommendation appears to be valid for two reasons.

First, esters which are used as a base-stock in some oils can, over time, be harmful to some oil filters.

And secondly, oil in the crankcase of a motorcycle or car may come into contact with fresh oxygen through thermal cycling. For instance, in the early AM the garage may be 60F while in the late afternoon the temps may rise to 95F. As the temps increase, air is vented from the crankcase and as the temps cool down, air is drawn in the crankcase, bringing with it a fresh charge of oxygen. Oil will react with oxygen and cause degradation. Additives such as antioxidants resist degradation, but eventually the oxygen overcomes. Some oils, especially dino oils, are more susceptible to oxidation.

So, if I'm using a full-synthetic oil, and don't ride/drive for a year I would change the filter just in case the esters are damaging the filter. If using dino oil, I would change the filter and oil after a year, owing to oxidation.

Best,

Jason
 
#48 ·
Has anyone here ever mixed leftovers from various grades/brands of oils and then run them? I'm considering mixing up a bunch of different motorcycle oils and then sending them off to Blackstone to be tested. When you consider the additive packages vary considerably from brand to brand it (theoretically) could be beneficial to take two or more oils one that is lacking in one additive, yet had what appears to be a surplus of another and a different set of oils that might have a surplus of another additive to bolster the one that may have had minimums in it, etc. Group 4 mixed with group 3 and concoct a very good blend. My point is that no I only own one vehicle that uses an even # of qts when changing oil. My motorcycles always use x # of qts plus a few oz. which leaves leftovers in the bottles. So what to do with them?
 
#51 ·
Excuse a dumb question, there may be a difference between modern auto engines and m/c engines in how they handle crankcase fumes. In the old days car engines had a vent on the valve cover that let out oil fumes. Then they had PCVs that recirculated the fumes back into the intake manifold. M/C may have followed the same technology. So back to my question, aren't m/c crankcases sealed from the atmosphere? Obviously with heat there's expansion but with cooling is outside air introduced?
 
#55 ·
Lee_T, If they were 'sealed' they would make even less horsepower, due to pressure build-up under the piston.

Look at the top rear of the KLR transmission area for a steel nipple & black rubber hose about 3/4 inch OD. The black rubber hose (crankcase vent hose) connects to the clean side of the air filter box, near the top rear shock mount.

Higher rpm, large displacement, single cylinder engines are extremely hard to ventilate with a true Positive Crankcase Ventilation system. Twin cylinders are a little easier, Triples may actually fall between the singles & twins, as there are always either 2 pistons going up or 2 pistons going down. Four & more are readily properly ventilated.

Here is a thread for your reading pleasure, https://www.klrforum.com/klr-other-motorcycle-related-discussion/25618-dissertation-ventilation.html
 
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