Why did KLR change from CDI to TCI? - Page 2 - Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum
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post #11 of 29 Old 09-07-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by JdgDReDD View Post
Magneto CDI steps the voltage up to 30,000 volts. This can be dangerous to inexperienced users and IMO they went backwards to TCBI as a safety precaution. (TCBI is transistor controlled breakerless ignition) and runs off 12 volts. Much safer.
Respectfully, don't think any consequential safety risk difference exists between the high-voltage spark from either a CDI or TCBI ignition. Each spark is high voltage and low amperage. The low amperage remains unlikely to pose physical injury, IMHO.

I sincerely doubt safety concerns drove Kawasaki's switch from a CAPACITIVE discharge system (Generation 1) to an INDUCTIVE one (Generation 2). My opinion only; YMMV!

BTW; don't think either generation KLR offers "magneto voltage" ignition, as the phrase is commonly used. Kawasaki sometimes labels the alternator as, "magneto," but . . . nomenclature precision may be somewhat lost in translation (Japanese to English).

DISCLAIMER: I don't know why Kawasaki made the, Great Leap Backward, abandoning capacitive discharge ignition for the Generation 2 scheme; Tom's suggestion of the change offering a cheaper, simpler, more robust stator appears as good a speculation as any, to me.

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post #12 of 29 Old 09-07-2019, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JdgDReDD View Post
Magneto CDI steps the voltage up to 30,000 volts. This can be dangerous to inexperienced users and IMO they went backwards to TCBI as a safety precaution. (TCBI is transistor controlled breakerless ignition) and runs off 12 volts. Much safer.
Humm, I've never, ever heard or read of any mechanic or owner being hospitalized because ignition spark shock. Therefore I don't know we would need a safer system.
I've personally tested many ignition systems with bare fingers or arms by accident and quite a few on purpose.
A bad condenser on the old breaker points systems would give one a low voltage AC shock. Sort of like the feeling of a 9V battery on ones tongue.

A higher intensity spark usually makes for more certain ignition of the fuel charge at higher combustion chamber pressures. CDI

A longer duration spark, in lower combustion chamber pressures supposedly can create a more complete burn. TCBI

As I understand it.
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post #13 of 29 Old 09-07-2019, 12:52 PM
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I've never heard of it happening, but in motorcycle college they jumped up and down about it.

I've been jolted good by this type of system once or twice, i think its more dangerous to people with heart issues. 30k volts is a lot, good thing there isn't a lot of amperage.

D


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Humm, I've never, ever heard or read of any mechanic or owner being hospitalized because ignition spark shock. Therefore I don't know we would need a safer system.
I've personally tested many ignition systems with bare fingers or arms by accident and quite a few on purpose.
A bad condenser on the old breaker points systems would give one a low voltage AC shock. Sort of like the feeling of a 9V battery on ones tongue.

A higher intensity spark usually makes for more certain ignition of the fuel charge at higher combustion chamber pressures. CDI

A longer duration spark, in lower combustion chamber pressures supposedly can create a more complete burn. TCBI

As I understand it.

Last edited by JdgDReDD; 09-07-2019 at 12:55 PM.
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post #14 of 29 Old 09-07-2019, 01:01 PM
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This reminded me of a KLF 220 issue. The old ones had magneto CDI and it was common for the magnets to come loose in the flywheel and migrate around screwing the timing over. Was interesting...

They could have gotten away from CDI because of the higher failure rate CDI boxes. TCBI is a lot more reliable IMO. (other than relying on the battery) I've had to change few TCBI boxes vs CDI box replacement. which is common.

The liability of using the CDI vs the higher failure rate of CDI boxes (due to higher operating voltage)

There was also battery power CDI too, I don't recall which type of CDI was the dangerous one. i'd have to think on that for a while. I think Mag CDI was the dangerous one if i recall; (the old kawi trikes ran battery CDI and had common rectifier issues in the charging system, it would over charge and mess up the timing.)

Last edited by JdgDReDD; 09-07-2019 at 01:17 PM.
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post #15 of 29 Old 09-07-2019, 01:32 PM
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Hmm. The way I find out if the ignition system is making spark is not by taking the spark plug out, grounding it against the head, cranking things over, and peering at the spark plug.

I grab the high tension lead and crank it over. If it's making spark you'll know. Been doing that since about 1970. Of course, you have to have the good sense to keep one hand in your pocket. If I recall correctly, my Ossa Pioneer made a heck of a spark. At least it felt that way...

To date, I have not been killed. Not even once.

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post #16 of 29 Old 09-07-2019, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by JdgDReDD View Post
This reminded me of a KLF 220 issue. The old ones had magneto CDI and it was common for the magnets to come loose in the flywheel and migrate around screwing the timing over. Was interesting...
The term, "magneto CDI," confuses me.

A magneto ignition produces a spark from the collapse of magnetic flux about an inductor.

A CDI produces a spark by the discharge of a capacitor.

So, "magneto CDI," seems to me an oxymoron.

I think a couple of videos from this link explain magneto ignition; no CDI to be found.


And this link:


And, good ol' WikipediA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_magneto

(Plus plenty of hits one couldn't read in a lifetime.)

Just sayin', magneto ignition is primarily inductive; CDI involves discharging a capacitor across the primary windings of an ignition coil. Different breeds of cats.

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post #17 of 29 Old 09-07-2019, 02:45 PM
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Battery Charged (DC) CDI

Magneto (AC) Charged CDI


Two types of CDI

Last edited by JdgDReDD; 09-07-2019 at 11:05 PM.
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post #18 of 29 Old 09-07-2019, 08:42 PM
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There are two types of CDIs, as in: AC-powered CDIs, and DC-powered DCIs. In each of these, an AC voltage (provided through an inverter on a DC-powered CDI) is stepped up, rectified, and used to charge a capacitor. A pickup coil senses a timing lump on the rotor, triggering a thyristor (Silicon-Controlled Rectifier, or SCR), discharging the capacitor across the primary windings of the ignition coil, resulting in a spark from the ignition coil secondary windings.

Magneto IGNITIONS are 'nother thing entirely (as described in the links provided), to the best of my knowledge and belief. No CDI is involved in a magneto ignition system.

“You better put down that gun. You got two ways to go, put it down or use it. Even if you tie me, you’re gonna be dead.” "John Russell" (Paul Newman), Hombre
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post #19 of 29 Old 09-07-2019, 11:09 PM
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87 KLF 220, check it and many other machines. but thats a good example of mag cdi


Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
There are two types of CDIs, as in: AC-powered CDIs, and DC-powered DCIs. In each of these, an AC voltage (provided through an inverter on a DC-powered CDI) is stepped up, rectified, and used to charge a capacitor. A pickup coil senses a timing lump on the rotor, triggering a thyristor (Silicon-Controlled Rectifier, or SCR), discharging the capacitor across the primary windings of the ignition coil, resulting in a spark from the ignition coil secondary windings.

Magneto IGNITIONS are 'nother thing entirely (as described in the links provided), to the best of my knowledge and belief. No CDI is involved in a magneto ignition system.
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post #20 of 29 Old 09-08-2019, 03:36 PM
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87 KLF 220, check it and many other machines. but thats a good example of mag cdi
Respectfully, I think "mag cdi" appears a contradiction in terms. A CDI isn't applicable to a magneto ignition system as far as I can see; there's no CAPACITOR to DISCHARGE. Thus, I wonder where the capacitative discharge ignition exists, when a magneto ignition has none.

YMMV; and you're certainly entitled to your own belief system. WikipediA tells us,

---------------------------------------------

The basic principle[edit]

Most ignition systems used in cars are inductive discharge ignition (IDI) systems, which are solely relying on the electric inductance at the coil to produce high-voltage electricity to the spark plugs as the magnetic field collapses when the current to the primary coil winding is disconnected (disruptive discharge). In a CDI system, a charging circuit charges a high voltage capacitor, and at the instant of ignition the system stops charging the capacitor, allowing the capacitor to discharge its output to the ignition coil before reaching the spark plug.

--------------------------------------

Magneto ignitions are inductive discharge systems; don't understand how they can be also capacitor discharge systems. Maybe it's just ME!

“You better put down that gun. You got two ways to go, put it down or use it. Even if you tie me, you’re gonna be dead.” "John Russell" (Paul Newman), Hombre
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