Why did KLR change from CDI to TCI? - Page 3 - Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum
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post #21 of 38 Old 09-08-2019, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
Magneto ignitions are inductive discharge systems; don't understand how they can be also capacitor discharge systems. Maybe it's just ME!
Damocles, what I know about electricity can be summed up in one snappy sentence: "Resistance = volts / amps." If you give me any two I can find the unknown.

However, a lawnmower in the old days used a magneto, points and a capacitor, hence in my mind it's a type of CDI system.

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post #22 of 38 Old 09-08-2019, 09:02 PM
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If there is a points-type ignition and it includes a capacitor the capacitor's function is to prevent pitting of the points. It hasn't anything to do with providing the large voltage required to create a spark. Instead, a magneto creates a large EMF and a set of points opens. The EMF collapses and creates a spark. Tain't no CDI about it.

A couple of observations.

The first thing that should be done in any discussion is to define the terms used in the discussion. Were I asked to define what a magneto is, I would say that it is a form of alternator that uses permanent magnets and a coil, in relative motion to one another, to create an alternating current. Compare and contrast to a conventional alternator which uses field coils instead of permanent magnets. Thus, every KLR ever made has a magneto.

A magneto ignition is a specialized form of magneto that uses a set of breaker points to collapse a field and create a spark. It ain't too sophisticated as far as timing goes...

As Damocles says, there are two kinds of CDI, AC and DC. The source of the AC is not a discriminator; doesn't matter if it comes from an alternator, a magneto, or house current with a really long extension cord. It's just AC. If one is going to say there is 'magneto CDI' then one must also say there is 'alternator CDI' and 'house current CDI', or any other source of AC imaginable. It's just AC CDI.

There is no such thing as an '87 KLF 220.
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Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 09-08-2019 at 09:09 PM.
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post #23 of 38 Old 09-09-2019, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
If there is a points-type ignition and it includes a capacitor the capacitor's function is to prevent pitting of the points. It hasn't anything to do with providing the large voltage required to create a spark. Instead, a magneto creates a large EMF and a set of points opens. The EMF collapses and creates a spark. Tain't no CDI about it.
You're exactly right and even as ignorant as I am about electricity I should have arrived at the same conclusion before posting.

I remember being on the wrong end of the capacitor trick when I was about 9 years old. My neighbor charged the capacitor from his old Chevy pickup truck and carefully handed it to me. Man what a jolt I got when I unknowingly touched the case and the center contact!

At the end of that shocking discovery I was convinced the capacitor had something to do with generating spark!

Jason
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post #24 of 38 Old 09-09-2019, 09:20 AM
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Apparently, a very fine distinction exists (to some) between INDUCTIVE discharge ignition systems (as in, magneto ignition systems, and ol'-timey automobile points/coil/condenser ignition systems), and CAPACITIVE discharge ignition (CDI) systems (as in, Generation 1 KLRs).

CAVEAT: Do NOT expect help from researching Kawasaki marketing literature on this subject; recent "official" Kawasaki marketing literature refers to the latter-day KLR650 ignition systems as, "Electric CDI," which we all know is FALSE.

I offer a tell-tale clue assisting in distinguishing between the two types of ignition systems:

An INDUCTIVE ignition system fires when an electrical circuit is OPENED, as when points open, allowing the saturated primary inductor coil's electric field to collapse, inducing a spark-worthy voltage from the secondary coil.

A CAPACITIVE ignition system fires when an electrical circuit is CLOSED, as when a thyristor (Silicon-Controlled Rectifier, SCR) connects a highly-charged capacitor to an ignition coil's primary windings, inducing a high-voltage pulse from the secondary windings.

So, BREAKING a connection to induce spark identifies an inductive ignition system; MAKING a connection to induce spark suggests a capacitive discharge ignition system.

(This information WILL be on your quiz, but: You will NOT be bothered with troublesome formulas, such as: e = L dI/dT ! )

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post #25 of 38 Old 09-09-2019, 09:33 AM
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Want to make your own CDI?

Here's how:

https://www.homemade-circuits.com/ho...ive-discharge/


“You better put down that gun. You got two ways to go, put it down or use it. Even if you tie me, you’re gonna be dead.” "John Russell" (Paul Newman), Hombre
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post #26 of 38 Old 09-09-2019, 02:03 PM
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Definately not going to argue about it.


thanks

So tell me, what of ignition does a snowmobile have? (since they went away from points)

Mag CDI ....... KLF 220 mag cdi, KLT 250 i believe has Battery CDI. Gen 2 KLR 650 TCBI, Moto cross bikes .... Mag CDI

Mag being where the power is coming from.


Yall wanna just measure dicks? cause i'm tired of the sparring.?


probably won't be back.

ciao

Licensed Motorcycle Mechanic since 1995 !!

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post #27 of 38 Old 09-09-2019, 02:48 PM
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Maybe ya'll be helpful enough to tell me how i delete my account on here?

Licensed Motorcycle Mechanic since 1995 !!
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post #28 of 38 Old 09-09-2019, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JdgDReDD View Post
...So tell me, what of ignition does a snowmobile have? (since they went away from points)...
That would be either AC or DC CDI, depending on whether or not the source of juice comes from a magneto/alternator or from the battery.

But then, you knew that. Either that or you're being deliberately obtuse or practicing willful ignorance.
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post #29 of 38 Old 09-09-2019, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JdgDReDD View Post
So tell me, what of ignition does a snowmobile have? (since they went away from points)

Mag CDI ....... KLF 220 mag cdi, KLT 250 i believe has Battery CDI. Gen 2 KLR 650 TCBI, Moto cross bikes .... Mag CDI

Mag being where the power is coming from.
"Going Away From Points" ain't new; Kawasaki marketeers proclaimed their Generation 2s had, "breakerless" ignitions; but . . . so did the Generation 1s! In both these models, thyristors (Silicon Controlled Rectifiers, SCRs) are triggered by pulses from pickup coils, acting as switches, turning ON circuitry connecting capacitive discharge power to the primary ignition coil windings in the case of Generation 1s (CDI), and turning OFF circuitry connecting power to the primary ignition coil windings of Generation 2s (inductive discharge ignition).

Further, "Getting Away From Points" has nothing to do with Capacitive Discharge Ignitions (CDI) or Inductive Discharge Ignitions (as in Generation 2s); electronic switching (vs. contact points) has been around for both ignition types for a long time.

Nomenclature and semantics play a role in these discussions, it seems! I agree with Tom's definition of, "magneto." Yet, when the word, "magneto," is combined with the word, "ignition," as in, "magneto ignition," a more specific context arises. The lady instructing the aviation students in this clip does a pretty good job of explaining, "magneto ignition" systems:


I think early post-World War II Piper Cubs had DUAL magneto ignitions (for aviation safety redundancy, I suppose); anyway, I believe a cockpit control switch could engage either or both magnetos; they were tested in pre-flight, by switching from one to the other and noting respective engine RPM.

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Last edited by Damocles; 09-09-2019 at 08:38 PM.
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post #30 of 38 Old 12-01-2019, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
That would be either AC or DC CDI, depending on whether or not the source of juice comes from a magneto/alternator or from the battery.

But then, you knew that. Either that or you're being deliberately obtuse or practicing willful ignorance.
ac cdi = mag cdi

Dc cdi = Battery cdi,

thanks for making my point Tom
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