Motorcycle Safety Training - Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum
Never let your guard down This forum is for discussions on close calls and other safety issues.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 40 Old 12-03-2010, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
1st Gear
 
webmost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Delaware
Posts: 88
Motorcycle Safety Training

Transition

It's a big mistake to make your first bike a new bike. The reason is exactly what you say: You don't know what you want yet. First off, with any vehicle you take a big hit on the way out the door. You buy a new KLR650 for five grand today, it's worth four when you leave your house tomorrow, three the first time you drop it. Why take that hit when there's a real good chance that a year from now you will want something else? Second, your chances of dropping or crashing are greatest when you are a new rider. Why crash a cherry bike? The solution is simple. There are wads and gobs of used bikes of every description out there for cheap. Especially in these tough times, when desperate people are unloading their toys to try to survive. I say buy used, don't worry, learn, then settle on what you really want down the road. Used Jap bikes are the best value in transportation. You can ride one for two years and sell it for what you paid. And you don't have to worry whether it's right for you, because if it's not, you go try another one. Look in craigslist or look here.

It's also a mistake to believe in MSF courses. I know this is going to sound nuts, because it is nuts. So what? There are plenty of facts in this world which are nuts. These MSF courses fall into the nuts category. Tons of studies have been done on the effectiveness of these courses all over the country and all over the world. They all agree that these courses do no good at all. The studies with the biggest sample and the best methodology all agree that these courses actually increase your risk of a wreck. Bear in mind that these studies are all done by DMV bureaucracies which have a vested interest in promoting the courses. In fact, in typical gummint fashion, their solution to it doesn't work is to recommend spending more on the same thing.

Now, don't shoot the messenger. I didn't invent the facts, and I don't say the facts make sense. I just read a comment from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety to this effect some years ago, went to the IIHS site, and started following links, and sure enough, there is the relaity. Go there and read for yourself. Or look here: http://motorcycleclub.org/ where I have posted a summary some professors made of whole bunches of these studies at http://www.motorcycleclub.org/safety/mayhew_simpson.htm

So take all that you learned by weaving through cones in a parking lot with a big grain of salt. Keep your eyes open. There's plenty of proven imbeciles in two ton machinery out to kill you. Some you can recognize by the cell phone at their ear. Others have a hands free phone.

Unmitigated risk aversion is the new Puritanism; complete with witch hunts, funny outfits, and humorless preachers thundering doom. The name of the Deity is changed to Safety; the name of Satan is changed to Lawyer; but the object is the same: to suck the life out of life and tell you how to live it.
webmost is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 40 Old 12-03-2010, 02:48 PM
Threadjacker
 
Lockjaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Benicia, CA
Posts: 6,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by webmost View Post
Transition

It's a big mistake to make your first bike a new bike. The reason is exactly what you say: You don't know what you want yet. First off, with any vehicle you take a big hit on the way out the door. You buy a new KLR650 for five grand today, it's worth four when you leave your house tomorrow, three the first time you drop it. Why take that hit when there's a real good chance that a year from now you will want something else? Second, your chances of dropping or crashing are greatest when you are a new rider. Why crash a cherry bike? The solution is simple. There are wads and gobs of used bikes of every description out there for cheap. Especially in these tough times, when desperate people are unloading their toys to try to survive. I say buy used, don't worry, learn, then settle on what you really want down the road. Used Jap bikes are the best value in transportation. You can ride one for two years and sell it for what you paid. And you don't have to worry whether it's right for you, because if it's not, you go try another one. Look in craigslist or look here.

It's also a mistake to believe in MSF courses. I know this is going to sound nuts, because it is nuts. So what? There are plenty of facts in this world which are nuts. These MSF courses fall into the nuts category. Tons of studies have been done on the effectiveness of these courses all over the country and all over the world. They all agree that these courses do no good at all. The studies with the biggest sample and the best methodology all agree that these courses actually increase your risk of a wreck. Bear in mind that these studies are all done by DMV bureaucracies which have a vested interest in promoting the courses. In fact, in typical gummint fashion, their solution to it doesn't work is to recommend spending more on the same thing.

Now, don't shoot the messenger. I didn't invent the facts, and I don't say the facts make sense. I just read a comment from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety to this effect some years ago, went to the IIHS site, and started following links, and sure enough, there is the relaity. Go there and read for yourself. Or look here: http://motorcycleclub.org/ where I have posted a summary some professors made of whole bunches of these studies at http://www.motorcycleclub.org/safety/mayhew_simpson.htm

So take all that you learned by weaving through cones in a parking lot with a big grain of salt. Keep your eyes open. There's plenty of proven imbeciles in two ton machinery out to kill you. Some you can recognize by the cell phone at their ear. Others have a hands free phone.
Hmmmm. Gonna have to disagree with some of this. Used bike can be a good call if you know how to find a good one or know someone who does. So, partial agreement on that point. I also agree that the MSF is lauded as some ethereal council of wise riders who provide a safety net against the world. Obviously BS. But to say they do NO good. If you have never ridden a bike, they can teach you how. Can they teach you to stay alive? No. Can they teach you how to operate a clutch, use the friction zone, explain countersteering, and let you get a chance to learn on a bike you don't have to worry about dropping? Hell yeah. To paraphrase vatrader, I ain't drunk the MSF's kool aid. I think they have some screwed up ideas and policies. I also think it is dangerous that they kind of imply *wink wink* 'now you're ready to ride a MC'. But absolutes are dangerous, too. They do some good. Statistics are what they are. They aren't always right or able to see the forest for the trees like we can.

And personally, I don't care for the term Jap bikes. I know it is commonly used. I know you didn't mean it to be offensive, but it is a holdover from when Japan produced different kind of bikes than they do now. And a holdover from a different time. My Paupa used to call Japanese people Japs and it bothered me, but he fought a war against them. I can kind of understand that. Lot of water has gone under the bridge since then.

All that said, I think trying to find a good used bike might be a good idea if money is an issue. And give the MSF a little credit. People listen to what we say on here (god help us) and to say that they will do nothing to help is a little irresponsible IMHO. Not trying to start a fight, just hoping you'll reflect on your post a little.




"In a car you're always in a compartment, and because you're used to it you don't realize that through that car window everything you see is just more TV." R. Pirsig

PPMC #1.
Soon, we ride.

AKA JD Mader or you can call me "Dan" just not early for dinner.

Click my handle for a link to my homepage/blog...which has nothing to do with MCs. Free literature and music! Viva La Revolucion!
-------------------
2008 KLR 650
RIP DM - Soon, we ride.
Lockjaw is offline  
post #3 of 40 Old 12-03-2010, 03:22 PM
Pretty in Pink, dunno why
 
Tom Schmitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Redondo Beach
Posts: 7,360
Garage
webmost-

Thanks for posting that up. "How do you telephone survey those riders who had an accident and died from it?" I'm quoting that, just so you know I read your stuff.

This is a sober subject and I recently posted that I would wish for some training that would help riders, especially young ones, ride better (more effectively, safer, pick the right word).

LJ and I are in the same camp, I think, with respect to MSF and PLP (parking lot practice). We've been to the same forum where it's value is espoused and come away trying to scrape the taste of bad fish eggs off our tongues...

I never took the first MSF course, though I did take the Experienced Rider Course. I've always been on the fence on the value of PLP. I think I got something out of it, but don't believe I came away a really better rider for it.

It is counter-intuitive that training - the right training - is bad.

A rhetorical question, but worthy of discussion: What should we do for new riders?

Tom

I played Moderator and built this into it a new thread - it's really worthy.

Tom [email protected]

I lit a cigarette and dragged a smoking stand beside the chair. The minutes went by on tiptoe, with their fingers to their lips. -Philip Marlowe

'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used. -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.

Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 12-03-2010 at 03:27 PM.
Tom Schmitz is offline  
 
post #4 of 40 Old 12-03-2010, 04:06 PM
1st Gear
 
Hellbilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Parker, CO
Posts: 94
In my mind it's simple... "Get 'em out of the parking lot and onto the road during the MSF training." But agian, I've been riding for 37 years.

I've attended (military mandatory) the inital MSF course and two Experienced Rider courses. I won't say they don't do any good, because they do. But they could be a lot better. Like I said to my first instructor "I don't need to know how to keep my bike from falling over at 3 miles an hour in a parking lot because I don't care about that. I'd like for you to show me how to stay alive at 70 mph on the street."

Hasn't happened yet. Closest I came was attending California Superbike School at Willow Springs. Learned more there than anywhere.

De inimico non loquaris sed cogites
Hellbilly is offline  
post #5 of 40 Old 12-03-2010, 05:52 PM
Threadjacker
 
Lockjaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Benicia, CA
Posts: 6,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellbilly View Post
I won't say they don't do any good, because they do. But they could be a lot better.
Bam! Short and sweet.




"In a car you're always in a compartment, and because you're used to it you don't realize that through that car window everything you see is just more TV." R. Pirsig

PPMC #1.
Soon, we ride.

AKA JD Mader or you can call me "Dan" just not early for dinner.

Click my handle for a link to my homepage/blog...which has nothing to do with MCs. Free literature and music! Viva La Revolucion!
-------------------
2008 KLR 650
RIP DM - Soon, we ride.
Lockjaw is offline  
post #6 of 40 Old 12-03-2010, 05:56 PM
Threadjacker
 
Lockjaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Benicia, CA
Posts: 6,753
edit: not implying this should end the discussion. just a well capsulized version of how i see it. sorry no caps - eating a sandwich and typing one handed.




"In a car you're always in a compartment, and because you're used to it you don't realize that through that car window everything you see is just more TV." R. Pirsig

PPMC #1.
Soon, we ride.

AKA JD Mader or you can call me "Dan" just not early for dinner.

Click my handle for a link to my homepage/blog...which has nothing to do with MCs. Free literature and music! Viva La Revolucion!
-------------------
2008 KLR 650
RIP DM - Soon, we ride.
Lockjaw is offline  
post #7 of 40 Old 12-03-2010, 06:06 PM
Pretty in Pink, dunno why
 
Tom Schmitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Redondo Beach
Posts: 7,360
Garage
I think back on what worked for me.

As a young, new rider, I crashed. That hurt and made me think I didn't want to do it again. As a slightly more experienced rider, I crashed again. With my wife on the back. That scared me. Her, too. Fortunately, we were in a parking lot and hit an oil slick at about 10mph. Nothing hurt but our pride. It taught me to always be on the lookout and never take anything for granted.

Pictures of a woman passenger with road rash from head to toe. Picture of a young sport bike rider, dead, with his head stuck in the back of a semi-trailer.

Having to make a sudden stop, and having the rear end lock up and go sideways.

Quiet back roads in SLO county in the '70s and a chance to learn how to ride twisties.

A tank slapper at 100 on a CB350 on 101 near Morro Bay.

40 years of bicycling, where you really are invisible.

What are some of the things that made you the rider you are today?

Tom

Tom [email protected]

I lit a cigarette and dragged a smoking stand beside the chair. The minutes went by on tiptoe, with their fingers to their lips. -Philip Marlowe

'Why' and 'How' are words so important they cannot be too often used. -Napoleon Bonaparte


Sting like a butterfly.

Last edited by Tom Schmitz; 12-03-2010 at 06:09 PM.
Tom Schmitz is offline  
post #8 of 40 Old 12-03-2010, 06:26 PM
Threadjacker
 
Lockjaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Benicia, CA
Posts: 6,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
I think back on what worked for me.

As a young, new rider, I crashed. That hurt and made me think I didn't want to do it again. As a slightly more experienced rider, I crashed again. With my wife on the back. That scared me. Her, too. Fortunately, we were in a parking lot and hit an oil slick at about 10mph. Nothing hurt but our pride. It taught me to always be on the lookout and never take anything for granted.

Pictures of a woman passenger with road rash from head to toe. Picture of a young sport bike rider, dead, with his head stuck in the back of a semi-trailer.

Having to make a sudden stop, and having the rear end lock up and go sideways.

Quiet back roads in SLO county in the '70s and a chance to learn how to ride twisties.

A tank slapper at 100 on a CB350 on 101 near Morro Bay.

40 years of bicycling, where you really are invisible.

What are some of the things that made you the rider you are today?

Tom
I've been lucky that I've never really eaten it hard. But let's see.

1) I've seen tons of shit fly off the back of trucks. Keep my distance.
2) When I was a kid, my Dad brought over a female friend of his...pretty lady...I will never forget the road rash either.
3) I don't do it much anymore, but I used to watch crash videos on Youtube a lot. Kept me honest.
4) I was in a pretty awful car accident when I was 16. I walked away. On a bike, I would have been dead. No doubt.
5) I read and research obsessively about anything I am interested in...fishing...bikes...I owe a huge debt to Mr. Hough as do a lot of us.
6) I've seen some pretty bad bike accidents.
7) I ride/have ridden a lot on the streets of SF. It has made me an aggressive, but extremely aware rider.
8) I had an asshole throw a beer bottle and hit me in the face while I was on my bike. Always wore full face...always will.
9) Though nothing bad happened...that also taught me that as much as I want to teach all the idiots a lesson, they will not learn and I might get hurt.
10) Bicycling, for sure! Saved my bacon MANY times.
11) I have locked up the brakes a few times and I didn't high side because I knew what to do. I truly do visualize scenarios. And I practice fast stops, swerves etc on my bike.
12) I've almost been taken out from behind a few times, so I look at my mirrors a lot.
13) As a good friend of mine always says, I ride MY ride. Unless I'm with my boys and they want to ride slower and then I ride their ride.
14) I prove I'm proficient in ways that are far more fun than hauling ass (balance, control, fluidity).
15) I have never been afraid to ask for help or egotistical enough to think I can't learn by watching people who do things better than I do.
16) I keep one of Francine's scrunchies around my throttle. When I do get stupid, I look at it and think how ****ing unfair it would be to leave her without a Dad because I got hotheaded, pushed it too far, etc.

I gotta go take a little ride, probably throw some more up later, but 16 is my lucky number. For now, we'll stick with this. Oh, and every once in a while I hurt myself bad enough (off the bike) to think how horrible years of recovery could be.

And I ride with the best damn group of bikers I know.




"In a car you're always in a compartment, and because you're used to it you don't realize that through that car window everything you see is just more TV." R. Pirsig

PPMC #1.
Soon, we ride.

AKA JD Mader or you can call me "Dan" just not early for dinner.

Click my handle for a link to my homepage/blog...which has nothing to do with MCs. Free literature and music! Viva La Revolucion!
-------------------
2008 KLR 650
RIP DM - Soon, we ride.
Lockjaw is offline  
post #9 of 40 Old 12-03-2010, 08:50 PM
1st Gear
 
Hellbilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Parker, CO
Posts: 94
All 16 are good points.

I too crashed as a young lad. Actually it was the very first time I ever rode a motorcycle. It was a Honda CB 450. Rode from one end of a parking lot to the other and did a right hand turn to go back. I did not pull in the clutch while turning (knew nothing about it) and when the handle bar went to the right, my wrist pinned the throttle. Bike stood up and slammed right into the back of a brand new Camaro (1973). The bike suffered bent forks, bent up fender, and broken lights. The car lost a little dust from the bumper. I busted up my right knee pretty good... on the rear spoiler... on my way over the car.

It hurt, but I was hooked, and I had a deep respect for motorcycles after that. I think it was a blessing that I did it on the very first ride.

De inimico non loquaris sed cogites
Hellbilly is offline  
post #10 of 40 Old 12-03-2010, 10:48 PM
Threadjacker
 
Lockjaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Benicia, CA
Posts: 6,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellbilly View Post
All 16 are good points.

I too crashed as a young lad. Actually it was the very first time I ever rode a motorcycle. It was a Honda CB 450. Rode from one end of a parking lot to the other and did a right hand turn to go back. I did not pull in the clutch while turning (knew nothing about it) and when the handle bar went to the right, my wrist pinned the throttle. Bike stood up and slammed right into the back of a brand new Camaro (1973). The bike suffered bent forks, bent up fender, and broken lights. The car lost a little dust from the bumper. I busted up my right knee pretty good... on the rear spoiler... on my way over the car.

It hurt, but I was hooked, and I had a deep respect for motorcycles after that. I think it was a blessing that I did it on the very first ride.
As the owner of a 73 cb450...ouch. I was out checking out christmas lights with the girls tonight and I remembered another good one. The worst wreck I've had on a bike (scooter) was when I hit some muni tracks in the rain. Broke the lever...hurt my pride and ruined a good pair of pants. Got off easy. Lesson learned...paint and metal are slicker than snot in the rain. Have not made the same mistake since.




"In a car you're always in a compartment, and because you're used to it you don't realize that through that car window everything you see is just more TV." R. Pirsig

PPMC #1.
Soon, we ride.

AKA JD Mader or you can call me "Dan" just not early for dinner.

Click my handle for a link to my homepage/blog...which has nothing to do with MCs. Free literature and music! Viva La Revolucion!
-------------------
2008 KLR 650
RIP DM - Soon, we ride.
Lockjaw is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bike Jedi In Training! First Bike Question Transition Introductions 34 06-09-2015 10:02 PM
Safety reminder Mark B (4) KLR & Other Motorcycle Related Discussion 4 11-13-2009 07:57 PM
Passed Motorcycle Safety Course Markk9 KLR & Other Motorcycle Related Discussion 5 07-01-2008 05:54 AM
MSF Safety Course DXKLR The Off Topic Lounge 1 04-20-2008 03:10 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome