Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum - Reply to Topic
2008+ KLR650 Wrenching & Mod Questions For repair, maintaining or modifying discussions related to the newly updated 2008 and beyond, Generation 2 KLR650 Motorcycle.

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  Topic Review (Newest First)
08-05-2013 05:01 AM
Damocles
Quote:
Originally Posted by justjeff View Post
Good explanation! I am wondering if the rotor needs changing too? It has a different PN and looks different too!
Quite possibly so, justjeff! Don't know, but--a required rotor transplant might be one of the disagreeable surprises encountered in going CDI on a Generation 2.

Worth checking out BEFORE embarking upon the task. Good catch!
08-05-2013 01:05 AM
justjeff Good explanation! I am wondering if the rotor needs changing too? It has a different PN and looks different too!
Regards....justjeff....from Hinton....doing the Alberta Forestry Trunk Road.
08-04-2013 06:03 PM
Damocles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schmitz View Post
I have always wondered what the advantage to the Gen2 system was and why Kawasaki changed. It seemed like a step backwards, to me.
I, too, have always considered the Generation 2 ignition, a "Great Leap Backward!"

Yet, responsible for the Japanese widows and orphans with their life savings invested in Kawasaki Heavy Industries stock, I can see how the green eye-shaded financial managers made the change.

1. Less exnsive stators. Having only one, vs. two, sets of coils means lower labor and material costs.

2. Lower-cost IGNITER. The CDI box includes a step-up transformer, a high-voltage rectifier, and a thyristor. The Generation 2 igniter, by contrast, has only a thyristor, or similar electronic switch in common with these parts. Both igniters have solid-state components controlling igntion advance, etc., but--the Generation 2 model has fewer components and solder joints; lower cost of production!

My guess, the basis for the change was economic-; NOT performance-driven.
08-04-2013 01:01 PM
Tom Schmitz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
No expertise claimed, but I'll share my perhaps flawed concept of the respective ignition systems by Generations.

CAVEAT: Some technical discussion may follow (those offended by same may now averet their eyes).

A significant difference exists between the Generation 1 and the Generation 2 stators:

1. The older stator provides two separate sources of electric power; one, three-phase alternating current for charging the battery (routed to the rectifier/regulator for that purpose), and a separate alternating current power routed to the "igniter" (or Capacitive Discharge Ignition (CDI)) module.

2. The Generation 2 stator provides only three-phase alternating current power to the rectifier/regulator; the latter-day ignition is powered by 12-volt DC battery voltgage. (And, Kawasaki's own specifications notwithstanding, the Generation 2 KLRs don't have no stinkin' Capacitive Discharge Ignitions (CDIs); their ignitions are "Inductive Discharge Ignitions," or as Kawasaki marketing has referred to the design, "Fully-Transistorized Breakerless Ignition (FTBI).")

Some operational consequences of the two designs:

1. The Generation 1 can be bump-started, independent of the condition of its battery; in fact, even in the ABSENCE of a battery, because its ignition is powered from the exciter coils of the stator, NOT the battery.

2. The Generation 2 MAY be bump-started, but . . . if the battery is LOW, the stator must overcome the charging burden of the battery, PLUS provide enough juice to fire the ignition. Significance: You might have to push the bike PRETTY FAST to get it to fire, if the battery's really, REALLY dead.

Is changing ignition systems/components INTER-GENERATIONALLY possible/practical?

A CDI implant on a Generation 2 would require a Generation 1 stator, a CDI igniter, and probably a Generation 1 ignition coil (the electrical specifications of the newer and older ignition coils vary greatly, the CDI coil functions as a "transformer," the Generation 2 coil more as an inductor).

So, what with the parts scrounging, wiring alterations, and probably some annoying difficulties/gremlins I haven't even thought of, might be better to just, "Dance with the one who brung you."

Summarizing, a Generation 1 can always be bump-started, regardless of the condition of its battery; a Generation 2 MAY be bump-started, provided the "bump" spins up the rotor sufficiently to overcome the load of the battery and additionally produce enough power to fire the ignition coil.

DISCLAIMER: My perceptions and opinions only above; corrections and clarifications welcomed, as always!
An excellent recap, Damocles. Clear and concise.

I have always wondered what the advantage to the Gen2 system was and why Kawasaki changed. It seemed like a step backwards, to me.

T
08-04-2013 12:12 PM
fradsham Have a Gen 2 and had a really bad battery one time, could not even get get a sound from the starting motor, and was able to keep "bump-starting" it without too much difficulty while I waited for the new battery to arrive....

Also I guess that counted as some exercise....
08-04-2013 10:33 AM
Damocles
Quote:
Originally Posted by flash View Post
Thanks for the explanation D. I thought it may to come down to that.

Thinking back on disabling the interlocks, was that even necessary to bump start? Or did that just enable the starter to operate under any condition?
The latter, I should think, flash!

With the ignition ON, and with the safety switches either in the GO condition or bypassed (as you've done), the success of a bump start depends upon its vigor, relative to the battery condition (IMHO).

Just for kicks; with ignition switch ON, roll 'er down a hill, in maybe 3d gear; pop the clutch and see what happens!
08-04-2013 10:14 AM
flash
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
So, what with the parts scrounging, wiring alterations, and probably some annoying difficulties/gremlins I haven't even thought of, might be better to just, "Dance with the one who brung you."
Thanks for the explanation D. I thought it may to come down to that.

Thinking back on disabling the interlocks, was that even necessary to bump start? Or did that just enable the starter to operate under any condition?
08-04-2013 07:12 AM
Damocles No expertise claimed, but I'll share my perhaps flawed concept of the respective ignition systems by Generations.

CAVEAT: Some technical discussion may follow (those offended by same may now averet their eyes).

A significant difference exists between the Generation 1 and the Generation 2 stators:

1. The older stator provides two separate sources of electric power; one, three-phase alternating current for charging the battery (routed to the rectifier/regulator for that purpose), and a separate alternating current power routed to the "igniter" (or Capacitive Discharge Ignition (CDI)) module.

2. The Generation 2 stator provides only three-phase alternating current power to the rectifier/regulator; the latter-day ignition is powered by 12-volt DC battery voltgage. (And, Kawasaki's own specifications notwithstanding, the Generation 2 KLRs don't have no stinkin' Capacitive Discharge Ignitions (CDIs); their ignitions are "Inductive Discharge Ignitions," or as Kawasaki marketing has referred to the design, "Fully-Transistorized Breakerless Ignition (FTBI).")

Some operational consequences of the two designs:

1. The Generation 1 can be bump-started, independent of the condition of its battery; in fact, even in the ABSENCE of a battery, because its ignition is powered from the exciter coils of the stator, NOT the battery.

2. The Generation 2 MAY be bump-started, but . . . if the battery is LOW, the stator must overcome the charging burden of the battery, PLUS provide enough juice to fire the ignition. Significance: You might have to push the bike PRETTY FAST to get it to fire, if the battery's really, REALLY dead.

Is changing ignition systems/components INTER-GENERATIONALLY possible/practical?

A CDI implant on a Generation 2 would require a Generation 1 stator, a CDI igniter, and probably a Generation 1 ignition coil (the electrical specifications of the newer and older ignition coils vary greatly, the CDI coil functions as a "transformer," the Generation 2 coil more as an inductor).

So, what with the parts scrounging, wiring alterations, and probably some annoying difficulties/gremlins I haven't even thought of, might be better to just, "Dance with the one who brung you."

Summarizing, a Generation 1 can always be bump-started, regardless of the condition of its battery; a Generation 2 MAY be bump-started, provided the "bump" spins up the rotor sufficiently to overcome the load of the battery and additionally produce enough power to fire the ignition coil.

DISCLAIMER: My perceptions and opinions only above; corrections and clarifications welcomed, as always!
08-03-2013 09:52 PM
flash I've never seen a write-up about this so I guess it would be a reverse engineering sort of thing.

I could compare the schematics but that would be akin to me throwing some chicken bones down on the shop floor and trying to glean some useful information from those also.

I'm confident it can be done, not so sure if it should be done.

The reason I want to do this is the reason I keep the KLR. Short of a horse I want something I can ride off into the Zombie Apocalypse....(Don tinfoil hats now).
08-03-2013 09:29 PM
Tom Schmitz Yes, I think so.

Damocles is the expert on this stuff.

T
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