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1990 KLR Tengai Resto-mod.... Maybe

18K views 109 replies 8 participants last post by  ironranger88 
#1 ·
Hey, I realized that I've been posting in the Introductin thread so far, So I thought I bring this project over to the area where it belongs!
Here is the link to where I've been so far. https://www.klrforum.com/introductions/71665-brand-new.html

Update List:
1- I bought a 1990 KLR Tengai locally in Phoenix, AZ
2- It was run with VERY low oil which ceized the cams, Kacr exploded, Timing chain broke, and the timing gear on the crank "ruined" the teeth, so I decided to replace the engine.
3- found side fairings in London for a decent price, they're being shipped.
4- Speedometer "set up" was purchased from CA
5- New engine found in LA (possibly 35K miles)
6- Rebuilt the brakes, front suspension, cleaned/ lubed frame and swing arm componants.

Basically I'm ready to get an engine put back in, but I've run into trouble. The transmission feels "wrong" on the CA engine, while the crank is no good on the AZ engine (the one that was removed from the bike). Read up on the other post for details (I belive the CA engine to be 2008 or newer and don't know what parts are interchangable internally)

If anyone has any thoughts or knows of a good machine shop in PHX that I can take this case to to get new bearings and seals pressed in when I split the case, I would be greatful! THANKS

OH, Also for the Tengai Experts here... This is a picture of my bike, and the fairings I purchased are the "other" paint job style. Will These blues match? I assume not... Probably going to have to do a whole paint job if thats the case. Ideas?
Thanks again.
 

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#3 ·
Well, ALRIGHTY THEN! Too easy. They are both "AE0" engines, so they are both Gen 1. Thank you! The only thing then is the extra gear thing, Looks like a kick gear. Hopefully no big deal.

Any idea about the "hard moving" transmission and how to possibly get it turning/shifting smooth again without cracking the case open?
 
#4 ·
The engine with the countershaft sprocket that is retained by a nut is '96-'07.

You can put the earlier transmission into the newer case, but cannot put a new transmission into an older case. The retaining clips for the earlier output shaft are somewhat rare, but not unobtainable. If the one you have is somewhat worn, get a new one or two.

The newer transmission is a five-dog and they have been known to bust a dog. That usually is clunky a quite shitty. You may simply have a rusty bearing.
 
#6 ·
The engine with the countershaft sprocket that is retained by a nut is '96-'07.

Dog?

You can put the earlier transmission into the newer case, but cannot put a new transmission into an older case. The retaining clips for the earlier output shaft are somewhat rare, but not unobtainable. If the one you have is somewhat worn, get a new one or two.

The newer transmission is a five-dog and they have been known to bust a dog. That usually is clunky a quite shitty. You may simply have a rusty bearing.
Sounds like what I want to do anyways then.. Take the Newer engines crank and put it in the old case with the older transmission (since the new transmission is having issues anyways. both are 5 speed I'm assuming.
 
#5 ·
#7 · (Edited)
Yes, dogs.



All the internals should move from the old case to the new without any issues.

Though, depending on the year, the transmission ratios varied somewhat the transmissions were always 5-speed.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Yes, dogs.

All the internals should move from the old case to the new without any issues.

Though, depending on the year, the transmission ratios varied somewhat the transmissions were always 5-speed.
Oh, I see. Thanks. I Thought those were called "shifter pawls" or were those forks... Eh. No biggy. lol

We'll, I was hoping to put the new crank into the old case because the CA air has put some REAL HELL on the New case. It would need to be completely stripped and painted... But if the New transmission is really that much better, then I'll do it.
 

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#9 ·
Next question While I'm working these transmissions and replacing cranks.

Both of these pistons look good, but I'm assuming a honing and some new rings would be in good order... Doesn't look like I can find anything easily. What is recommended for piston kits without getting into all of these silly "big bore" kits and such. Doesn't anyone sell just a simple set of OEM rings?
 
#11 ·
No, they don't. Kawasaki usta sell a standard ring set and .5 and 1mm over ring sets. No longer available. Someone once claimed that they had found a ring set that could be used in place of the OEM, but it was vaporware.

You say that the bore and piston look good. I will be branded as an Astro-van mechanic of the worst order for saying this, but consider cleaning things up and running it. All you have to lose is some time and a head and base gasket. Your alternative is to spend a few hundred on a big-bore kit. If you put it together and it is horrible and depressing, take it back apart and put a 685 in it. Of course, use your best shade-tree mechanic practices to ensure cleanliness and proper fitment during this dangerous, foolish, and ill-advised activity.
 
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#10 ·
In my opinion, the new transmission is not a better transmission. I don't happen to believe that a 5-dog transmission is stronger than a three-dog. Kawasaki goes to lots of stuff that isn't necessarily better than what they had before. The dogs are what keep the gears in constant motion, yet allow some slack. A five-dog might be as strong as, or perhaps stronger, than a three-dog if it could be ensured that every dog was bearing 20% of the load at all times. Tolerances being what they are, there is likely a dog or two that is carrying no load, though. In a three-dog it is easier to ensure that the dogs are carrying their fair share. A single dog in a three-dog is stronger than a single dog in a five-dog.

The transmission is shifted by a shift drum and shift forks and a shifter cam. There are no pawls. That is Sturmey-Archer stuff.

The newer case is a better case, though. Have a look at this: https://www.souperdoo.com/stuff that i think about/i-am-joe-s-crankcase
You'll see some spots where it was improved and made a bit stronger. Does it really matter? Meh, maybe not so much but it is a stronger case. Had they beefed up the drain plug area, that would matter.

But you know what opinions are like.
 
#13 ·
You might as well pull the clutch cover off so that you can verify the 92081 spring is in good shape and that the 13145 cam and 13165 pawl (there's your Sturmey-Archer part) is working correctly. You'll be able to see if the external shift mechanism is working right. Anything more than that will require splitting the cases.
 
#15 ·
I assume you are loading the input shaft and trying to shift it. Try loading the output shaft and trying to shift it. Sometimes applying the force form a different direction on the drum can help.
 
#16 ·
Tried Loading the Sprocket shaft and ACTUALLY got it go! ONCE, then I couldn't get it back out. lol After a few love taps on some things, it loosened it and got it back to 3 gears. lol So I decided to crack the case...

I'LL GIVE YOU ONE GUESS AS TO WHAT WAS THE FIRST THING THAT FELL OUT!

Haha...

What are the chances that I'd buy a bike with a bad crank, then an engine with a bad Transmission. This will work! haha Eventually, with a lot of work.
 

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#22 ·
WELLP!

Another Day down... The 1990 AZ Case and the 1999 (some parts were marked) Head/ Cams/ Crank are all Assembled! The only significant thing I ran into was that the "tension-er sprocket" (the one that the doohicky) sits on, between the 1990 and 1999 were slightly different. The 1999 case is actually machined down to accommodate a thicker washer underneath, while the 1990 has a recessed gear. Kinda odd, but I had to reuse the 1990 Tension-er gear to match the case even though the rubber was kinda gouged up. I'm looking for another good one to use in there. Good enough for now.

The engine is in and ready to do a first start! EXCEPT, for the fact that there are some VERY strange wiring decisions made somewhere in this bikes past that I'm not so sure about... I'm going to investigate further before attempting to FRY EVERYTHING!

1- I see they did a kick stand sensor delete. Cool Cool.
2- There is a Blue/ Black wire splice near the Main Wiring harness.. No Idea
3- Red/white and red spliced into brown or something.. No Idea.
4- Starter Relay looks like its.... Missing something...
5- Lots of fun happening near the fuse/ battery area i'm going to have to look at. Some of which looks like they ran an extra set of brake lights in the past.
 

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#23 ·
...
2- There is a Blue/ Black wire splice near the Main Wiring harness.. No Idea
3- Red/white and red spliced into brown or something.. No Idea.
4- Starter Relay looks like its.... Missing something...
5- Lots of fun happening near the fuse/ battery area i'm going to have to look at. Some of which looks like they ran an extra set of brake lights in the past.
I swear, some people could **** up a wet dream.
 
#24 ·
ironranger88,
Did you use the Solid engine balancer sprockets or the early 'spring damped' sprockets? Hopefully you used the solid ones. The upper rear solid sprocket takes a thrust washer behind it, #92022-1880.
Wish that you had ordered an EM Doo-Hickey & Torsion Spring instead of using the welded (brittle) 1999 engine balancer locking lever & extension spring. How much remaining travel does the spring have?
I highly recommend that one always turn the engine CCW to TDC before loosening the locking bolt for balancer adjustment. This gets all of the slack on the proper side & the weights in neutral (assembly) position. And never over-torque the locking bolt (70 inch pounds).

Here are the 1990 & 1999 engine balancer parts pages to compare.

1990, https://www.kawasakipartshouse.com/oemparts/a/kaw/50a9795bf8700218fcc068f0/balancer

1999, https://www.kawasakipartshouse.com/oemparts/a/kaw/500b23fdf8700223e478cb71/balancer (I don't think this illustration is Accurate!)

2001, shows solid upper rear sprocket, https://www.kawasakipartshouse.com/oemparts/a/kaw/500b2661f8700223e47903ad/balancer (I'm still not certain that lower front sprocket illustration is accurate?)
 
#25 ·
Hey, Thanks for the info. Yes I did the Eagle Mike Doohicky. Unfortunatly, both engines had the "spring" sprockets in the top right hand and lower left, so I just used the nicer of the two sets, but the idler spockets were just machined differently in width for some reason. I didn't feel like grinding down my case to fit the thicker (newer 1999) idler sprocket, but there were no other differences in them besides width.
 
#26 ·
Hmm... Got the bike to light up, But no start with the start button. It'll turn over if I jump the starter relay (so the starter is working well)

Basically spent all morning Sanding copper connections in the ignition, shut off switch, Clutch and putting the wiring back to stock as much as possible. Any Idea if these wires in the starter relay are in the correct area? Is there supposed to be a fuse in there?

Looks Like My starter "lock out" switch is tampered with. The BL/R and BK/Y wires are spliced and the LG (light green) wire is connected to another LG wire. I don't know what's going on here.

Will keep looking into it. Anybody more knowledgeable about this one?
Thanks
 

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#27 · (Edited)
That starter relay is not like either Gen 1 or 2. When you apply 12V DC power to that relay it should operate (hear a click) closing the contacts providing power to the starter motor. On the Gen 1s, there is a "starter circuit relay" (what gets energized when you push the starter button), that provides power to the "starter relay" - see the wiring schematic - Tengai should be same.



I noticed on one of the previous pictures you posted, that the main ground wire wasn't connected (black/yellow). That's a critical connection, carries a lot of current. In this pic, note I've upgraded that connector to Gen 2 style. Also, note the common blade fuse mod upgrade (harness on the left) to replace the glass fuse block (on the right, currently connected).

 
#28 ·
What you have in that picture is more or less correct. It should be a Bk/Y and a Bk wire. It is supposed to be in a connector, but that is a refinement for later.


I would suspect a switch failure in the safety circuit, so check the clutch switch, kickstand switch, and the neutral switch for proper operation.
 
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#30 ·
What you have in that picture is more or less correct. It should be a Bk/Y and a Bk wire. It is supposed to be in a connector, but that is a refinement for later.


I would suspect a switch failure in the safety circuit, so check the clutch switch, kickstand switch, and the neutral switch for proper operation.[/QUO

Hey, Very Helpful Thank you. Actually The Starter Relay is just that. It connects when the starter button is pressed to allow the LARGE current to flow along side it directly to the starter. Then #31 (this image has labled as "kick stand relay") Is actually a little more, It sorts out ALL of the odds and end relays to allow EVERYTHING to connect. Then allows the starter button to work. It's called the "Starter Circut Relay" In my service manual. After some light headache and testing it.... MINE IS BAD! HOORAY problem found.

Thank you
 
#29 · (Edited)
So from the wiring color code and schematic, it would appear that ....

These are supposed to be where the fuse block connects to the battery
(2x glass fuses, 1-for main @20Amp, and 1-for headlight @10Amp)


This is most likely the bypass for the side-stand safety switch.



This is most likely the bypass for the clutch safety switch.


... also, the standard KLR switch block looks like this (borrowed from epay).
 
#31 ·
So from the wiring color code and schematic, it would appear that ....

These are supposed to be where the fuse block connects to the battery
(2x glass fuses, 1-for main @20Amp, and 1-for headlight @10Amp)
You are correct on all of those! I reversed all of them except the Kick stand one. For SOME REASON, my clutch relay is backwards... (it only works when my clutch is out), but I was able to diagnose that my "starter circuit relay" is no good! So, I'll have to start hunting for that now. Some on eBay, but $45 for a new one? Sheesh... I guess I'll go cheap first and cross my fingers on a used one.

Thanks for your assistance Gents


NEXT is to put oil, coolant, fuel, button it up and SEE IF IT STARTS! Wish me luck!
 
#32 ·
OH, and I forgot that I Tried to pick out a part of the Ceramic Disk seal from the Impeller (I thought It was dirt) and Destroyed it. So I had to order another one a them before I can actually attempt it's first start.. So... Will be a good week before I have other news.
 
#33 ·
ironranger88, The low amp starter button relay that powers up the High Amp starter relay is on the RH side of the frame behind & above the coolant reservoir. The cooling fan relay is similar & in the same area.

And yeah, somebody has installed a generic High Amp starter relay onto your bike. They probably actually needed to replace the low amp relay.
 
#44 ·
I will have to check the part numbers on mine, but it’s likely that they are the 13169-1658 for the early models. I’m not sure what the difference is between the early and late clip, but they work interchangeably.
 
#45 · (Edited)
Because I had (still have) both a '92, and '94 bottom end, I happen to have two spline plates - both will do the job, but because the fastener hole centers have different distances, different sprockets are required.



I have a very good condition '94 bottom end here, that I'll never use again (prefer '96+):



...and I've got a '92 bottom end that had the counterbalancer chain let go, ruining LH side of the engine. The transmission parts are good, and the (hard to find) output shaft splines (that the front sprocket slides on to) is in very good shape on both engines. That spline plate arrangement allows the sprocket to rock a little on the splines, accelerating wear. Look for that issue on pre '96 engines. Those transmission output shafts are near unobtainium, and I've got two good ones!
 
#46 ·
IMHO, the keeper plate is interchangeable.
However, to be sure, ping eagle-mike - he has the OEMs on the shelf and can tell you which are interchangeable.

I have an '87 playbike but Wattman tells me the engine ID is from and '89.

Despite not needing YAKLR (yet another ...) I had '95 Barbie Bike follow me home over New Years.
Same keeper plate.
 
#49 ·
IMHO, the keeper plate is interchangeable...
I thought that too, but am now convinced this is not correct.

Details to follow.
 
#48 · (Edited)
The higher strength steel retainer plates from Eagle Mike have 'slots' instead of bolt holes to allow fitment onto either of early or middle Gen 1 transmission shafts.

(And an assortment of spacers & shims to center the various brands of sprockets & take up as much lateral movement as possible is SOLD SEPARATELY.)
 
#53 · (Edited)
The higher strength steel retainer plates from Eagle Mike have 'slots' instead of bolt holes to allow fitment onto either of early or middle Gen 1 transmission shafts.

(And an assortment of spacers & shims to center the various brands of sprockets & take up as much lateral movement as possible is SOLD SEPARATELY.)
I wish Eagle Mike's site had a picture. It is actually ITEM #1 on this page, https://www.eaglemike.com/KLR650-2007-and-earlier_c2.htm


And the sprocket shim kit is a ways away, to the RH side of Sunstar & prevailing torque nut, about midway down on second page and again is lacking of a picture,
https://www.eaglemike.com/KLR650-2007-and-earlier_c2.htm?page=2
 
#50 ·
Tom asked me to add to this, maybe provide some clarity to what I'd said previously. Having operated both a '92 and '94 for some time, I had to change out the spline plates a couple of times. Personally, I think that spline plate arrangement is a terrible way of (loosely) securing a sprocket to the output shaft. Because the sprocket isn't held tight, it can rock around a little on the spline, and over time this wears the spline, and the spline plate too - you can see the wear on the pics I posted.

Tom did some research that he shared with me...

"there were two different sprockets used on the '84-mid'96 KLR. From '84 to '89 the sprocket had 42mm bolt spacing and used plate 13270-1060 and 13169-1658. These plates are still available, probably because they were in use on stuff like the Ninja 500 and KLR250 up until '08 or so." and "For '90-mid'96 KHI changed to a sprocket that had 38mm spacing and used plate 13183-1525, which was only ever used on the KLR650, and it is no longer available. It seems the solution is to either use KLR600 sprockets or slot the available plates to fit the 38mm spacing."

Here in this pic, you can see the difference between the two different spline plates - Note the difference in the distance between hole centers:

 
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