Kawasaki KLR Forum banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys, i picked up an 87 klr 250 off a buddy. he put it away running about a year ago and now it doesnt start. I have spart, the carb has been cleaned and i have compression. It even try to pop off starting fluid. I adjusted my valves out to .024" because they were a bit on the tight side. Any ideas?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
8,255 Posts
.024 inch or .024 millimeter? <that shoulda been .24 millimeter...

.024" would be a rather huge gap.

When you open the drain screw on the bottom of the bowl, does fuel dribble out?

Is the choke working?

Do you have spark?

Tom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Spark is yes, I believe choke was operating fine but I was going to double check that. And dang I may have set them to .024" instead of mil. Didn't even think to check my feeling gauge when I picked it up, just opened .024 and went. And I will be checking the bowl once home.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,652 Posts
Sorry, fly824 and Tom S.,
Ya' both need readin' glasses!

Max. valve tappet clearance. Intake and Exhaust. KLR250.
0.24mm or .0095 inches.

I call it a 'snug' .010inch / or 'sloppy' .009inch!
I have tried to purchase a 'Metric' feeler gauge, in increments of .0255 MM (.001 thousands of an inch)! None to be had in the USA!
How about it Normk? Inch or MM feeler gauge, in Canada?

So, I use inches and decimals there-of, good thing they are Double 'Stamped'.
Inches and Millimeters.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,549 Posts
Valve clearance, .008-.0095INCHES, more or less! :)

STRONG; STRONG recommendation:

DRAIN float bowl; DRAIN fuel tank WITH PETCOCK LEVER SET TO RESERVE POSITION; fill tank with fresh gasoline. (Why RESERVE? Lower fuel tank volume is accessed ONLY through the RESERVE petcock position. A dollop or two of "Heet" or other "fuel system anti-freeze" might not hurt, nor some joy-juice like Sea Foam or Startron.

Starting fluid, sometimes, is your friend.

IMPORTANT: Get fresh, "dry" gasoline to the carb.

A long tow, maybe while in 3rd or 4th gear, might be more effective than the kick-starter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,652 Posts
I have gotta' say,
If ya' gotta' tow it or run it down a hill or use starting fluid , to light the fire, something is NOT correct!

Cylinder, Cold Cranking Compression, 60-114 PSI! 90-114 psi is preferred.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Thank you for the response guys! obviously the valves are way out of whack because I was in a rush and over looked the unit of measurement. and that could very well be, AS when i first adjusted them and kicked it over i had the only slight sign of life the bike has shown, a very very short rumble, maybe a total of 3 tops revolutions of the engine.

I had the carb completely apart and cleaned prior to my initial start attempt and i had drained the gas tank and put brand new fresh gas in there, but i will completely drain both again tomorrow and douche them out with some good 93 oct.

Now a question I am curious on as a friend has it brought it up. Will these engines start without oil pressure? the cams have a tad bit a wear on them (nothing excessive), and we are wondering if it has a slight starvation problem or not and if that could cause a no start isssue or not.

And thank you for the compression info, i will be going through everything after work tomorrow. Readjusting valves, running a compression test. and draining and replacing all fuel (again).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,652 Posts
fly824,
To the best of my knowledge, any engine will start and 'must start' with Zero oil Pressure.
How long it may run, is a whole 'nother issue!! Some generators and such have 'shut-down' systems!
To the best of my knowledge, the KLR250 has none of these 'safety-systems'.
Use at your own risk! Check your oil Level! FULL is usually 'good enough'!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Ok, that is exactly what I thought, I have a ton of experience on horizontal single cylinders and automotive and diesels. This is one of the first vertical four-stroke engines I've gotten my hands on and just wanted to be sure is all. Diesels need oil pressure to start but whole nother ball game lol. This engine has just thrown me for a lil loop and being a couple brews deep the first night I worked on it didn't help much. I'm used to carb issues or bad wiring being the issue on bikes/atvs
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,549 Posts
And thank you for the compression info, i will be going through everything after work tomorrow. Readjusting valves, running a compression test. and draining and replacing all fuel (again).
You may realize, a compression test, in the conventional sense, is compromised because of the KACR (Kawasaki Automatic Compression Release). The device must be disabled for a valid compression reading.

Alternatively, a leak-down test may give a better diagnosis of ring-and-valve condition.

CLARIFICATION: Starting fluid and/or bump-starting were suggested as a "field expedient," not as any permanent solution to any existing problems. A running engine might reveal more about its overall condition in some cases than one that will not start, IMHO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Drained al fuel, got valves adjusted and fired right up!! But I was getting what sounded like a valve tick, thought they may me a smidge loose. Readjusted and still getting it. Are these bikes know for noisey tops ends? With the cover off and turning by hand it doesn't come from a valve but more the end of the cam. I know older bikes can be noisey and it rides great, great power all the way up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,652 Posts
You may realize, a compression test, in the conventional sense, is compromised because of the KACR (Kawasaki Automatic Compression Release). The device must be disabled for a valid compression reading.

Alternatively, a leak-down test may give a better diagnosis of ring-and-valve condition.
Damocles,
I totally disagree with your first statement!
An engine must have sufficient compression to 'warm' the mixture of fuel and air and condense said mixture into an ignitable propellant! 90-114 PSI with an ACTIVE Kawasaki Automatic Compression Release (KACR) works just fine! If this engine can not achieve 80-90 psi of CCC, with or with-out an active KACR, it is not going to start good, run good.

It does NOT Matter, what the running compression might be! YOU First have to "Start-IT"! Which is WHY, I normal only concern myself with Cold Cranking Compression, (CCC). What good is a "hot" compression reading? If ya' can't Start it, Ya' can't get it hot!

Unless it starts good, but runs poor or burns excess oil, a leak-down test is probably not going to tell much more and is still hard to interpret, by the average owner. Even by experience mechanics, sometimes.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
8,255 Posts
Drained al fuel, got valves adjusted and fired right up!! But I was getting what sounded like a valve tick, thought they may me a smidge loose. Readjusted and still getting it. Are these bikes know for noisey tops ends? With the cover off and turning by hand it doesn't come from a valve but more the end of the cam. I know older bikes can be noisey and it rides great, great power all the way up.
That's sorta what I expected. That large a gap closes up the valves a bit, but it also has the effect of retarding opening and advancing the close. All in all, she don't work so good that way.

My 650 has a noticeable tick with the valves set to the maximum clearance. I'd imagine the 250 is the same, but Damocles can clue us in better on that.

Noisy valves are happy valves. At least happier than tight ones...

Tom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,549 Posts
Damocles,
I totally disagree with your first statement!
An engine must have sufficient compression to 'warm' the mixture of fuel and air and condense said mixture into an ignitable propellant! 90-114 PSI with an ACTIVE Kawasaki Automatic Compression Release (KACR) works just fine! If this engine can not achieve 80-90 psi of CCC, with or with-out an active KACR, it is not going to start good, run good.
The range of, "90-114 PSI," appears rather broad, to me; a function of the vagaries of the KACR, I think. A "factory-authorized modification," recently (2008), involved trimming down the KLR650 (I know; I know; we're discussing the KLR250!) KACR eccentric, because . . . in some cases, insufficient compression was present to start the engine, as-built, according to reports on the 'Net. (I do not have access to any Service Bulletin on this subject; here's one thread where the condition is discussed: http://www.klr650.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52619 . More comments, including from RangerRon (Post # 16) http://www.kawasakiforums.com/forum/klx-250s-71/kacr-cold-starting-37193/page2/ .)

Urban mythology? In truth, KACR anomalies have never been responsible for hard starting, at least on KLR250s? Don't know.

Does the KACR compromise true compression readings at cranking angular velocities, and if so, is this characteristic of any significance? Don't know that, either.

As to the difference between hot and cold compression tests, one might expect a hot engine's piston and rings to expand with temperature, providing better sealing than when cold. Yet, without the insinuation of the KACR, even a cold engine should provide pressure readings consistent with the engine's compression ratio, seems to me. Also, (pressure)(volume)/(temperature) ratios should remain essentially constant, I would think.

While a nominal 25 % range of absolute compression test value (24 PSI) may be adequate for diagnosis of ring and valve sealing condition, a leak-down test can point to either rings, or valves, or both, if compression is inadequate.

My impression/opinion only; the KACR's effect may be much more precise and consistent than I realize; if so, I stand corrected.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,652 Posts
Damocles,
From Toms earlier comment, I'm guessing that you did or do ride a KLR250.
So, if OEM service manual specs for 1985-2005 KL250-D series engine compression is 60-114 PSI, with an active KACR. What is Max compression possible with an In-Active KACR, and a leak-down reading of between 4-10 %? Hypothetically or Actually?

I will say that the first KACR modified by myself was on the early KSF250 Mojave, the 4 wheeled cousin of the KLR. Didn't start well at 30f. and under!

My first KLR650 KACR modification was 1996, first year of some of Kawasaki's "improvements". For the same reason, reluctant cold starting.
No one I know of, has ever posted a best ever, near perfect leak-down test, dis-abled or remove KACR, CCC for a 650. Not even Alpheus, to the best of my knowledge.

But I recently had a KLR685 with a straining/noisy starter gear, and Tom said his complained also.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,549 Posts
So, if OEM service manual specs for 1985-2005 KL250-D series engine compression is 60-114 PSI, with an active KACR. What is Max compression possible with an In-Active KACR, and a leak-down reading of between 4-10 %? Hypothetically or Actually?
Don't know, but . . . the 54 PSI range for "normal" compression test seems exceptionally broad, to me. Why might one serviceable bike read 60 PSI, and another read 114 PSI; both judged, "normal?"

Just wonderin'.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,652 Posts
Normal would be in the upper half of specs. So on a KLR250, 90-114 psi with an active KACR. IMO. 80 psi is serviceable, depending on how well it Cold Starts.

Abnormal or questionable or time for adjustments or other maintenance is any time the compression on an unknown bike/engine is in the bottom half of specs. So a KLR250, with 60-80 psi, with an active KACR, may need some attention.
Or not, if the owner/mechanic knows for certain that all is well, and it starts good / runs good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,549 Posts
Didn't realize a KLR compression test reading with a functioning KACR was such an accurate, repeatable measurement and consistently effective indication of the engine's condition.

Also, thought leak-down tests might comprise useful trouble-shooting tools.

Appreciate the clarification and correction.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
387 Posts
That the manual specs are so wide indicates that the engine is not to fussy about it's operating parameters.

Given that the KACR is not a precision device (Who knows how much variation there is from one to another?) we should all take a baseline reading of our cold cranking compression and leak down time to have meaningful numbers to compare with if (when) we have engine problems.
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top