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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Alright, sorry about being late with this. TLW conned me into an all-day affair making macaron yesterday. Since that consumed a lot of egg whites we've now got a lot of egg yolks left over, so I'm roped into making crème brulée today. Right now there is a break in the action.

These are the two idlers that I was able to lay my hands on. I think the one that measures .517" is the part that is listed as fitting the '84 through '95. The other one, .670", is from an '08.
View attachment 30729
View attachment 30730
View attachment 30732
View attachment 30734
View attachment 30735

Is any of this helpful? Does the one that measures .517" look like the one in your engine?
Yes very helpful indeed. I like the fact that the overall width seems very close in both sprockets (apart from where the spacer seats that is). I can likely modify a spacer to make this gear work from what I can tell.
Looking up a few posts you can see my sprocket I pulled out of my engine. It looks like your .517" sprocket but, and this is a big but, yours lacks the metal ring that seems to support the rubber on the sprocket. Now @pdwestman mentioned his sprocket was flat on the back while mine is not and neither is yours. However, from what I can gather that sprocket part number never changed until the changeover in 96. I have a theory his sprocket is flat because it lacked the metal support ring and the rubber sheered off. When searching 12046-1114, which is the the tensioner sprocket part number, I can find these two parts:
Rim Automotive wheel system Automotive tire Circle Auto part
Automotive tire Bicycle part Automotive wheel system Rim Auto part


Like I said both are listed under 12046-1114. Seems like there was an issue with the rubber shearing off so metal was added. Just a theory, I may be very wrong!

Back to the point though, your pictures are very helpful and gives me hope that I'll be able to make something work. If I can get a spacer to align this sprocket perfectly I will definitely report back with dimensions for others to use
 

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OK, my interest is piqued on this. I have to wonder why this couldn't be solved with a different idler shaft and inner case. That's sort of a rhetorical question, as I can get enough parts out to figure out why. If you know the answer, though, do tell. We can't be the first to ask this question.

I have a pre-'96 engine case and a post-'96 idler shaft and an inner alternator case. Might just be I could get them all in one place at one time and see what's what.

I also have a KLR600 inner case to compare to the post-'96 case.

Paul seems to have answered this above, but I'm a visual person. I need to see to understand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
OK, my interest is piqued on this. I have to wonder why this couldn't be solved with a different idler shaft and inner case. That's sort of a rhetorical question, as I can get enough parts out to figure out why. If you know the answer, though, do tell. We can't be the first to ask this question.

I have a pre-'96 engine case and a post-'96 idler shaft and an inner alternator case. Might just be I could get them all in one place at one time and see what's what.

I also have a KLR600 inner case to compare to the post-'96 case.

Paul seems to have answered this above, but I'm a visual person. I need to see to understand.

You may be on to something. Could be that a combination of parts is the easiest route. I'm especially interested in the height of the boss around the idler shaft hole pre and post 96. @pdwestman commented on their differences but I wonder what the measurements are like. If you're up for some ground work with those parts you have I'm sure it would help shed some light
 

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I think that this picture pretty well illustrates two things. First, it shows what Paul was saying. Second, it shows that I'm the kid in the back of the classroom who is drooling a little bit and making motorboat sounds. There's no solution with a later inner alternator case.

I measured a difference of ~.190". I didn't put the parts on the granite surface plate and set up a height gauge; I just measured it with calipers. Take that into consideration; this figure should be the difference in length of the eccentrics, but it isn't. There may be some slight differences in the two alternator cover castings, my measurement technique could have been off a bit, the two cases may not be sitting the same on the wooden tabletop, yadda yadda.

Gas Bumper Machine Font Office equipment


I interpret this to mean that there may be a difference in the left side case between the early engines and the later ones (pre vs post-'96). Unfortunately, I don't have a later case to play with, but I see some hope for an adventurous soul in the parts lists.

There are two spacers that capture the idler sprocket bearing.

pre-'96
SPACER,12.2X25X4.3
92026-1211
WASHER,20.3X36X1.5
92022-1489

Post '96
WASHER,20.3X36X1.5
92022-1489
SPACER
92026-1462

Unfortunately, the farging bastiches don't tell us what the thickness of the 92026-1462 space is, and I have so many spacers and thrust washers laying about that I couldn't be sure of what I was really looking at if I found a likely candidate. It could be the solution if it is a thin thrust washer; I don't remember it being especially thin, though. But no matter, we can continue with the hypothesis.

The idler shaft doesn't move much. Hardly at all with an Eagle lever and coils spring fitted. That means you don't have a spinning and thrust condition where the idler shaft interfaces with the inner alternator cover's lever-mount tab and the left side engine case. You might have a smidgeon of rotational motion and a smidgeon of axial motion. All you need is a simple thrust washer to be a hard, tough thing to act in those interfaces where the sprocket itself might need something to bear against.

On the early engines, you would be looking for about .16" (4mm) of space to install a later idler shaft. I pulled that number straight out of my ass based upon there being a .153" difference in the thickness of the idler sprockets, an observed approximate difference of .19" in the position of the idler shafts, and a difference in the length of the eccentrics of .158" that I have not mentioned before.

You've got, hopefully, a 4.2mm spacer and a 1.5mm spacer in your hands that came out of your engine right now. If that is the case, the task is to find a thrush washer set to go behind the spring lever and behind the idler shaft that will allow the idler shaft to fit. If .16" is the right answer, then you have ~.23" to play with. If you could find a set of thrust washers that were 1mm thick you could install them and see what it feels like. If the idler sprocket spins freely, great. If not you could start working the washers down towards 3/4mm until they do fit. You want to balance the thickness of the washers to maximize thrust capacity at both ends of the sprocket.

As to chain alignment, I think it should be OK as the reference for chain alignment ought to be off of the front of the idler sprocket, not the back.

How crazy does this sound to you?
 

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I have a theory his sprocket is flat because it lacked the metal support ring and the rubber sheered off.
My tensioner sprocket Never Had any inner rubber, otherwise my thimble screen would have been loaded with it.
My 1 owner 1987 screen was cleaner that newer bikes (on the forums) with a 10th of my 77,270 miles on June 26, 2016, first time the clutch cover was ever removed. To perform my 105% oil filtration mod.

Like I said both are listed under 12046-1114. Seems like there was an issue with the rubber shearing off so metal was added. Just a theory, I may be very wrong!
The pic of the FLAT sprocket that you are showing appears to have had its backside rubber 'Cut-Off' with a razor knife.


I have a pre-'96 engine case and a post-'96 idler shaft and an inner alternator case. Might just be I could get them all in one place at one time and see what's what.

I also have a KLR600 inner case to compare to the post-'96 case.
Tom,
I think that you would need a KL600 LH engine case or pre'96 LH engine case.

I believe that I am now seeing/understanding the issue, there is a THIRD tensioner sprocket (39133-1060) and spacer washer (92026-1462 / with no dimensions) been used on 1997 and newer bikes. My donor engine (for sprockets) was a 2005. Which I changed at 85,064 miles Feb. 15 2020.

My original flat back 1987 sprocket was probably identical to the 1984 - 1986 KL600 sprocket (12046-1102) which does supposedly UPDATE to the 12046-1114 used til mid-year 1996.
I wasn't quick enough. Tom types faster than I peck.

As to chain alignment, I think it should be OK as the reference for chain alignment ought to be off of the front of the idler sprocket, not the back.
I noticed the 2005 tensioner sprocket, rear spacer & eccentic shaft mis-alignment (in my 1987 engine) with the chain coming forward from the rear chain guide. As the chain rotates Clockwise. Before Even attempting to install the inner cover, which would have had a gap.


I'll suggest that I am responsible for creating undue confusion, last year!
Can we edit postings THAT OLD?
 

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...Tom,
I think that you would need a KL600 LH engine case or pre'96 LH engine case.
...
I have a pre-'96 case, but I don't have a post-'96. I think I'd need both to do any good with an engine case, and that would be to see if there is any difference at the idler shaft inner mount point.

I do have a KLR600 inner alternator cover and a 2008 inner alternator cover, so I've used that to visualize what's going on and to come up with wild and crazy hypotheses.

...Can we edit postings THAT OLD?
If you can't, I can. Just point me and tell me what to do.
 

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Tom,
Is it my eyes or is there a height difference in those 2 flanges AND surrounding raised bosses that the eccentric shafts are standing in?
But it does look like the actual height of the raised bosses are identical.

That .190 gap should be very close in height to the raised boss on my 1987 LH engine case, surrounding its eccentric shaft bore. Sorry that I never measured it.
 

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Yes, they are a bit different. That might be a spot where some clearance might be gained. I did not mention it because I thought that the chain alignment registered off of the front of the sprocket, not the back. I may be quite wrong on that!
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Thank you for the visual aid and taking time to get this all together. I'm eagerly waiting for my 96+ sprocket to arrive so I can have some hands on. I think I understand what you're saying, I'll need to play with spacers to see if I can get some acceptable clearances. I may have missed something cause my brain is fried this afternoon but after looking at my bike I think I get the gist of it. I did notice that my eccentric shaft and idler sprocket had some play in-out. The eagle doo did stop the eccentric shaft play for the most part but the idler sprocket still had some. This at least tells me I don't have to be laser precise and that the sprocket should self center with the chain on its roller bearing. I just need to be in the ball park with a minimal amount of play (same as oem or thereabouts). This is good because I was worried about trying to get this chain running perfectly straight, but it seems it will take care of itself.

But I do have a favor to ask of you, I don't own a 96+ eccentric shaft but I could use the dimensions of it. Specifically these 3:

Drill presses Office ruler Drilling Gas Tool


I'm thinking the middle dimension of a 96+ will be similar to that on a pre 96 with its spacer installed (about 4.4mm spacer in my case). I have calipers for measuring my e-shaft I just don't own 96+ one.
You both have done a lot and I really appreciate it. Like I said I haven't had this bike long so I'm still fingerin' stuff out
 

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I'll get those dimensions for you. The middle one is the only one that matters. The one at the top of the picture goes into an open hole in the case. The one at the bottom of the picture is longer than the pre-'96 to accommodate the thicker lever.

But before I go to the Shop of Horrors to do that, let me unload this stuff.

I fetched up an early crankcase, a 1988, and fitted a post-'96 eccentric and idler sprocket into it. I did it with a pre-'96 inner alternator case and with a post-'96 inner alternator case. For both conditions, I measured the amount of 'room' to fit thrust washers on either side of the idler sprocket. I used spacer blocks to measure the space that existed between the idler sprocket and the spring lever plate. No thrust washers were installed.

These are the spacer blocks. I normally use them for setting up a sine plate on the granite inspection block. They ain't certified and traceable to the NBS, but they are damn close.
Rectangle Camera accessory Font Automotive tire Auto part


The is the '88 crankcase ready to rock. This crankcase has been the star of photoshoots and videos for quite a while. SAG wants it to become a card-carrying member.
Automotive tire Bicycle part Rim Motor vehicle Automotive wheel system


This is the post-'96 assembly in place. If I recall correctly, it came out of a 2008.
Automotive tire Motor vehicle Rim Locking hubs Automotive design

*
The post-'96 cover is in place with a gasket and cover screws installed. No gap exists*.
Automotive tire Fluid Liquid Automotive lighting Automotive exterior


The best fit spacer block is a .160" (4mm)
Tire Wheel Automotive tire Gear Bicycle part


A 'pre-'96 case installed. Bonus points for identifying the year. Gasket and screws in place; no gap.
Wheel Automotive tire Motor vehicle Tire Automotive design


A .105" and .070" block were the best fit for a total of .175" (4.4mm)
Gear Black Automotive tire Bicycle part Rim

Hair Nose Head Eye Cosmetics


It would seem that one can expect to find 4.0 to 4.4 mm of room for spacers when installing a post-'96 eccentric and idler shaft into a pre-'96 motor. All you have to do is find the washers!


*To verify that there is no axial binding of the eccentric, endplay was checked with no gasket. With the post-'96 case installed the endplay was .025". With the pre-'96 case the endplay was .040".
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Wow! Don't even worry about the dimensions on that e-shaft I am way past that now. You pretty much solved my problem. It seems it will work I just need some spacers to get it sitting right. I assume one will be able to get proper chain alignment, could you tell during your testing? Proper alignment is likely somewhere in that 4.4mm window of play. Looks like I have some post 96 parts to order!
 

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I couldn't make a judgment on the alignment. I think if you keep the outboard side of the idler sprocket as close to the original position as possible you will be fine.

Another thing, a clarification. I realized that I may not have been clear on what my thoughts are on making this work.

In the standard installation, there is a spacer that goes on the shaft of the eccentric. This is the SPACER 92026-1462. Obviously, if the eccentric end float is .04" + gasket thickness, you aren't going to be able to put much in that spot. .04" + gasket might be .06', so you'd be looking for a 1mm thick washer to go there.

With the idler sprocket having 4mm of movement on the eccentric, there is room to put a thrust washer on the eccentric itself. I think that it might be possible to put another WASHER, 20.3X36X1.5 92022-1489 on the inboard side of the idler sprocket. That would give you a total of 3mm of thrust washers in a 4-4.3mm gap. The idler sprocket having 1mm for so of play shouldn't hurt anything. Stock on the late models is probably 2.5mm.

Of course, if you look at your installation and find that the eccentric has ~.06" of end float with a gasket installed and you can find a 1mm thrust washer to place between the eccentric and the case, you might elect to do that. You are breaking new ground here and will need to do some dungeoneering to decide how this is going to work the best for you.

What I want to do is go to the Shed of Horrors and try and find two WASHER, 20.3X36X1.5 92022-1489 and give this a try with the early case in place. I need to know if the boss on the crankcase will support a spacer on the eccentric or if it will just fall off over the boss. If that is the case, then it will be necessary to fit a thin thrust washer on the shaft of the eccentric.

There is, then, a Plan A and a Plan B. Plan C of Last Resort and Despair would be to find a machine shop that has a lathe set up with a tool post grinder and grind some clearance on the inboard face of the eccentric to fit the SPACER 92026-1462, which I believe is 2.4mm thick (because I have what I think is that part, but I'm not positive). The part I have is 27mm in diameter with a 12mm hole. When it is one the shaft of the eccentric it fits well against the side of the idler sprocket without touching the rubber.
 

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This washer might be an excellent candidate!

Yamaha WASHER 8JP-RA444-00-00 Size: 12X26X1 Snowmobile 2020 SR VIPER L-TX GT - SR1NLGLR Track Drive 2

It is a thrust washer, so the material should be right. They are about $3.
 

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Tom Schmitz is still my #1 vote for the GOAT award for detailed KLR650 info. Surpassing Eagle Mike and myself by miles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Okay so not off to the races just yet, but I have some hope. I don't have all the spares you do, none at all really, so it's hard for me to do some of the hands on but I'm working on getting some things.
Those Yamaha spacers were a good find and I may have some spacers on hand from other projects that are hard enough for the task or at least a mock up. I've found a person willing to part with an assortment of parts including a later style eccentric shaft and wider needle bearing which I will probably need as well. Have you tried the newer style sprocket on an older eccentric shaft? I know the surface for the bearing and sprocket isn't as wide so that may be a wash from the get-go. I'm just not sure by how much as I don't have both to play with, yet. Anyway is it possible this will free up enough room to put a thrust washer on with the smaller diameter center hole like oem that can't slip over the boss? Unless I'm picturing it wrong the main thing that would mess that up is not enough surface for the bearing. I suppose using the older style bearing is also a possibility but like I said I really don't know without having them in hand just yet. Hopefully I assume correctly that the newer needle bearing is wider
 

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I will repeat the mock-up with the older eccentric - that's a good thought. I was just out in the shop looking at the bearing and the eccentric. It looks like the bearing will have a fair amount of engagement. It just might work. You'd still be stuck with the short end that doesn't fully engage with the Eagle lever, but that hasn't been a real problem in the past (as far as I know...).
 

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@BreadLord, it is a non-starter.

Last night I was looking only at how much bearing would sit on the eccentric.

The problem is that once the idler sprocket is up against a thrust surface (washer, spacer, whatever) there isn't enough room to even install the circlip, let alone the WASHER, 20.3X36X1.5 92022-1489.
Tire Automotive tire Bicycle part Rim Nickel


I did a bunch of mock-up to see if there was any way this could be accommodated. The shaft on the eccentric bottoms out in the crankcase, leaving a .11" (2.75mm) gap. That might have to be dealt with by grinding some of the end of the shaft off. Then you'd need to find a ring spacer of ~ 17X12X4 to make the eccentric basically as long as the post-'96. The chances of finding such a part are Slim and None and Slim just left town... You'll also need the Yamaha washer. Once all is said and done, it might bind up. At this point, you are well beyond the point of diminishing returns and the build is dodgy at best.

It's just not gonna work. I think using the post-'96 eccentric and the Yamaha thrust washer has the best chance of success.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
@BreadLord, it is a non-starter.

Last night I was looking only at how much bearing would sit on the eccentric.

The problem is that once the idler sprocket is up against a thrust surface (washer, spacer, whatever) there isn't enough room to even install the circlip, let alone the WASHER, 20.3X36X1.5 92022-1489.
View attachment 30793

I did a bunch of mock-up to see if there was any way this could be accommodated. The shaft on the eccentric bottoms out in the crankcase, leaving a .11" (2.75mm) gap. That might have to be dealt with by grinding some of the end of the shaft off. Then you'd need to find a ring spacer of ~ 17X12X4 to make the eccentric basically as long as the post-'96. The chances of finding such a part are Slim and None and Slim just left town... You'll also need the Yamaha washer. Once all is said and done, it might bind up. At this point, you are well beyond the point of diminishing returns and the build is dodgy at best.

It's just not gonna work. I think using the post-'96 eccentric and the Yamaha thrust washer has the best chance of success.
Okay not great news but at least we know now, thank you. I'm still waiting on my parts to come in so I can't input really anything at the moment but your continued efforts are appreciated.

Oh yeah, do you think a post 96 inner alt case would be a worthwhile purchase for this project? I think I can source one inexpensively
 

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I don't think that is necessary. More on that in a bit.

I found the WASHER, 20.3X36X1.5 92022-1489 and installed that on the eccentric. The boss on the crankcase won't support it, so that was a bad idea. Forget about it; we're down to the Yamaha washer.

We know that the Yamaha solution will make for a tight assembly, depending upon the individual parts and the stacking of tolerances. In looking at a remedy for a zero-slop assembly, it looks to me like some material could be removed, very easily, from the inboard boss of the inner alternator case. The case will be off anyway and accessibility to the boss is good. It wouldn't be all that hard to remove a bit of material quite evenly if one were careful.

Since the only reason for getting another alternator case is in the hope that it would provide a bit more room and since it is so easy to remedy that, I see no reason to get a different inner alternator case.
 
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