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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
I don't think that is necessary. More on that in a bit.

I found the WASHER, 20.3X36X1.5 92022-1489 and installed that on the eccentric. The boss on the crankcase won't support it, so that was a bad idea. Forget about it; we're down to the Yamaha washer.

We know that the Yamaha solution will make for a tight assembly, depending upon the individual parts and the stacking of tolerances. In looking at a remedy for a zero-slop assembly, it looks to me like some material could be removed, very easily, from the inboard boss of the inner alternator case. The case will be off anyway and accessibility to the boss is good. It wouldn't be all that hard to remove a bit of material quite evenly if one were careful.

Since the only reason for getting another alternator case is in the hope that it would provide a bit more room and since it is so easy to remedy that, I see no reason to get a different inner alternator case.
Alright thank you for your thoughts on that. Right after my last message I actually received my 96+ sprocket so I did some messing around. Instead of hunting for a spacer I made a crude one out of some old tin for a way to mock up an assembly. It ended up having a thickness of .6mm. This was slid on the back of the eccentric shaft and had the same OD/ID of the original 4.3mm spacer from the old sprocket so sliding over the boss was a non issue. Of course my 96+ sprocket on the pre 96 e-shaft had some overhang over both the bearing and larger diameter portion of the e-shaft, but it still seemed supported. Although I have not looked into that as much, yet. I also had the c-clip and front spacer installed on the e-shaft. I was able to put on my alternator case without a gasket and it had no gaps or binding issues. The newer style sprocket also did not contact anything it wasn't supposed to with the .6mm spacer behind. I also found that the sprocket teeth were a very similar distance away from the engine case to that of the old sprocket so chain alignment is very close it seems. I'm going to do more messing around shortly.


Also the .6mm thickness was chosen simply because it is what I found first. I'm going to try and find something 1mm thick as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Well after some thinking, this sprocket will have the same amount of bearing support as the old sprocket given I'm using the same bearing, this sprocket just has a wider surface for it
 

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The idler sprocket should not generate a lot of side thrust, but I would still try and get the Yamaha washer. That, with the 1.5mm WASHER, 20.3X36X1.5 92022-1489 should be good to go.
 

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The older, narrower bearing will probably be OK as it was designed to be sufficient for the load, but I'd consider ordering the newer part. Partzilla has them for ~$20. Other suppliers can be less expensive. Combining the bearing with a Yamaha washer or two will make the shipping mordida more palatable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Yes I'm looking into ordering the Yamaha washers and I got a lead on the wider bearing. So it seems I can make this work on my older eccentric shaft fairly easily. Do you think the newer one is the same story?
 

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I think you may have missed post #38. I do not believe it is possible to make the old eccentric and the new idler sprocket work.

It is the new eccentric that should be workable by using the Yamaha washer as an inboard thrust washer, the normal outboard thrust washer, and perhaps removing a bit of material from the inboard side of the inner alternator case's flange.

Working on the flange should only be necessary if the eccentric gets a bit bound up when everything is assembled.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 · (Edited)
Erm well I sorta just got done modifying a spacer to make it work with the old eccentric shaft. I'm not sure where the difference is but a 96+ sprocket on my old eccentric shaft works fine. I found a hard spacer from another project of the past, drilled out the center hole and thinned it out to 1mm. From then I measured the distance of the teeth from the inner and outer case when the sprocket was pushed towards each extreme. I ended up with a .80mm spacer and I thought it very close to the old sprocket setup. I get no binding, similar amount of play, and similar teeth position in correlation to the engine case as compared to the old sprocket. I will add a picture of what I have

Automotive tire Auto part Rim Gas Jewellery

Parts stack pictured above, pre 96 e-shaft, c-clip, lever, 1.5mm spacer, needle bearing, then post 96 sprocket and custom spacer
Automotive tire Automotive wheel system Household hardware Gas Circle

How the spacer sits
Gear Automotive tire Crankset Rim Automotive wheel system

Assembly installed with no gasket. Similar play as last and similar teeth-case measurements.

I probably have some modifications to make still but it's very close
 

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OK. I understand; I made some mental errors. I had a concern about the bearing being slid out another 1.5mm and also wanted to have the sprocket captured flush at the end of the eccentric. I'm probably being overly conservative.

I also had a concern that the sprocket would have too much play on the eccentric but I found what was basically a math error in my thinking. The shaft doesn't go all the way into the hole and there is a gap of .110" between the crankcase and the eccentric. I wanted the thrust washer to be flush with the eccentric but that's impossible because the later sprocket sticks out about that much beyond the end of the eccentric. My want got in the way of reality and I declared it a nonstarter. My bad.

I have been assembling, disassembling, and reassembling things onto both shafts for the last half hour and finally got it through my head that 2 + 4 = 5 and so does 1 + 4 if you remember the 1 is there!.

What you've done will work. The only downside is that the lever-end of the eccentric is quite a bit shorter. It will work with an Eagle lever but won't fully engage with the lever. It bothers some people but I have never heard of a failure. The other downside is that the bearing is fully on a bearing surface but, meh, it's 80% on.
 

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By the way, that thrust washer you made is the perfect size! :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
OK. I understand; I made some mental errors. I had a concern about the bearing being slid out another 1.5mm and also wanted to have the sprocket captured flush at the end of the eccentric. I'm probably being overly conservative.

I also had a concern that the sprocket would have too much play on the eccentric but I found what was basically a math error in my thinking. The shaft doesn't go all the way into the hole and there is a gap of .110" between the crankcase and the eccentric. I wanted the thrust washer to be flush with the eccentric but that's impossible because the later sprocket sticks out about that much beyond the end of the eccentric. My want got in the way of reality and I declared it a nonstarter. My bad.

I have been assembling, disassembling, and reassembling things onto both shafts for the last half hour and finally got it through my head that 2 + 4 = 5 and so does 1 + 4 if you remember the 1 is there!.

What you've done will work. The only downside is that the lever-end of the eccentric is quite a bit shorter. It will work with an Eagle lever but won't fully engage with the lever. It bothers some people but I have never heard of a failure. The other downside is that the bearing is fully on a bearing surface but, meh, it's 80% on.
I also may not have communicated what I was trying for. I'm just glad I was able to put it all in the pictures.
About the bearing, as it sits the bearing can still get full engagement with the e-shaft but it is not captured on one side so theoretically it can walk out towards my custom spacer. I don't really like that idea so much, if it was captured on the e-shaft to have its full engagement there I would be perfectly happy so I may do some more sciencing yet.

I also noticed the doo engagement you mentioned, I would like this to be greater just like you but I sorta think it wouldn't be an issue given the eagle doo is strong and the e-shaft is hard.

By the way, that thrust washer you made is the perfect size! :D
You do not want to know how many times I shaved off some and test fitted. I had trouble getting accurate, repeatable measurements that would tell me how much to remove so I went for a more trial and error approach. It's easy to thin the spacer but it's just a little more challenging to make it thicker ;).

One thing I could try is the newer e-shaft and/or needle bearing. A newer bearing on an old shaft should be captured in my setup against the 1.5mm and the custom spacer. The engagement on the e-shaft will be to one side but will be as much as the old bearing had. You may have demonstrated this before, I am pretty dense, but do you think a newer e-shaft will work with a setup like mine?
 

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I believe the newer shaft will work. I'm going to do another mock-up today, now that I have found the outboard thrust washer, that simulates a Yamaha washer between the crankcase and the eccentric. I'll use all post-'96 parts and look to see what the axial play on the idler sprocket is and what the axial play on the eccentric is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
I believe the newer shaft will work. I'm going to do another mock-up today, now that I have found the outboard thrust washer, that simulates a Yamaha washer between the crankcase and the eccentric. I'll use all post-'96 parts and look to see what the axial play on the idler sprocket is and what the axial play on the eccentric is.
Okay that will be really helpful. I would like to use the newer e-shaft and needle bearing for the benefits of doing so. If it's possible to make those fit I'll definitely do it
 

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Here goes!

Two 1mm pins simulate the Yamaha washer.
Automotive design Automotive tire Motor vehicle Rim Bicycle part


All the post-'96 parts are stacked up.
Tire Wheel Vehicle Motor vehicle Automotive tire


Alternator inner case installed with no gasket and there is no gap (I could see some glimmers of light but couldn't pass a .002" feeler gauge) but the eccentric is tight and hard to turn.
Automotive lighting Bumper Fluid Automotive exterior Gas


Gasket installed.
Automotive tire Bumper Wood Rectangle Gas


Eccentric turns perfectly smoothly. Eccentric axial play is .005". Idler axial play is .02" plus the .005 of the eccentric for a total of .025".

If there is any concern, it has to be with the eccentric binding with just the wrong mix of parts and gasket. I think it is unlikely, but if it happens it can be taken care of by filing a bit off of the boss on the backside of the inner alternator case's flange. I think there is a bit more play available because the two pins are bridging the ring on the backside of the idler sprocket. The Yamaha washer would fit inside the ring on the surface that is just below flush from the ring. I measured the surface as .023" below the ring, so that much can be added into the idler sprocket axial movement. There's also that much less movement working to force the eccentric up into contact with the backside of the flange.

In short, if it is all put together and the eccentric turns freely, it's Saul Goodman. (It's all good, man.)

If it were my motor, this is the way I'd prefer to do it.
Motor vehicle Automotive tire Hood Automotive design Rim
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 · (Edited)
Here goes!

Two 1mm pins simulate the Yamaha washer.
View attachment 30800

All the post-'96 parts are stacked up.
View attachment 30801

Alternator inner case installed with no gasket and there is no gap (I could see some glimmers of light but couldn't pass a .002" feeler gauge) but the eccentric is tight and hard to turn.
View attachment 30802

Gasket installed.
View attachment 30804

Eccentric turns perfectly smoothly. Eccentric axial play is .005". Idler axial play is .02" plus the .005 of the eccentric for a total of .025".

If there is any concern, it has to be with the eccentric binding with just the wrong mix of parts and gasket. I think it is unlikely, but if it happens it can be taken care of by filing a bit off of the boss on the backside of the inner alternator case's flange. I think there is a bit more play available because the two pins are bridging the ring on the backside of the idler sprocket. The Yamaha washer would fit inside the ring on the surface that is just below flush from the ring. I measured the surface as .023" below the ring, so that much can be added into the idler sprocket axial movement. There's also that much less movement working to force the eccentric up into contact with the backside of the flange.

In short, if it is all put together and the eccentric turns freely, it's Saul Goodman. (It's all good, man.)

If it were my motor, this is the way I'd prefer to do it.
View attachment 30805
Fantastic work yet again, this is the type of result I was looking for. My .80mm spacer will likely free things up a bit more, but it seems like anyone who wanted to could buy a Yamaha spacer and make the post 96 stuff work without an unreasonable amount of work. I'm going to purchase the later eccentric shaft after seeing these results because I'd also prefer that way of doing it, but someone who couldn't buy the later stuff (except the sprocket) has the option of doing what I demonstrated. Hopefully this information helps others who have trouble finding the pre 96 sprockets. I know it certainly helped me. I can't thank you, @Tom Schmitz or @pdwestman enough. I'll probably post another update when I finally get all the new stuff in and the bike as well.



Edit after getting some hours on the old thumper: everything went together perfectly and the bike runs nice and smooth. This is all post 96 stuff in a pre 96 engine with .80mm tick' washer. I think the 1mm Yamaha washer is a good place to start and will likely work out of the box.
 
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