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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all!
it's been a while since my last post...
You guys have been a great help a year back when I was trying to bring to life my 1985 klr 600, everything has gone perfectly fine since then... well... almost...
This late summer I started having some problems, on a couple occasions my bike turned off while riding, a few minutes later it restarted without any issue whatsoever...
I assumed it was some sort of poor connection, so I cleaned up all contacts and flooded them with contact cleaner...everything went fine for a couple weeks, until the bike just died...
it's been a few months now and I've finally found some time to inspect the electrical system, I've gone trough every single electrical component and checked all connections with a multimeter... unfortunately the CDI is dead...
Problem is... the only CDI units I can seem to find for 85' KLR600 are NOS and cost waaaaay too much...
I found a cheap CDI box for a klr 650 from 1988 and was wondering if it's compatible with my bike... but I can't seem to find any info anywhere!
serial number for this CDI is: 21119-1214 070000-1700
the CDI from my bike reads: 21119- 1106 070000-1090
if you guys have any suggestions it would be great!
it'd be also nice to know if anyone has any idea of what these codes stand for...
thanks in advance!!!:grin2:
 

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No 50,000-mile guarantee from me, but . . . I'd imagine any Generation 1 KLR650 CDI would work with your KLR600.

Might want to test by substituting a known operational CDI before you spring for a used one.

While I don't have access to the relevant links off-hand, seems like I've seen aftermarket CDIs offered for sale at affordable prices.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks a lot for the reply Damocles.
Unfortunately i don’t know any klr owner here in italy, i’d love to try an operational CDI box but it looks like it might be tough to find!
The only second hand 600 CDI i could find on the web is 150€ and the seller isn’t sure if it works or not... the other one i was asking about is only 40€, i’m thinking to give it a try since it’s so cheap but i’m scared i might brake something if spark timing is not correct...
My main concern is wether there is any difference in stroke, valve timing and flyweel magnets placement between 600 and 650...
if anyone has a repair manual for a gen 1 klr650 that would be a great help to sort out these doubts!
 

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cogliaz, Electricity is my biggest down fall. But there is a member in the UK which is very familiar with the 600's. Ian H

Go to 'TOOLS', go to 'Member List', search "Ian H". Read his threads & postings in others. Send him a message, thru the private message system.
Maybe he can help?

I don't believe the mechanical details of stroke, valve timing or flywheel magnet place will have any bearing on the CDI unit itself.

Have you checked the AC voltage output from the (trigger coil/pick-up coil/pulse coil/crank position sensor) which ever terminology you are familiar with?
Yes the ohms may read 100-150, but we can still use an analog low volt tester to confirm a .2 or greater VAC pulse from it.
I do not know how much VAC one should expect from the large Exciter coil.
The voltages will rise with faster rotation of the engine. So put it in 3rd gear, spark plug removed and have someone rotate the rear wheel.
 

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The spark timing remains geometrically fixed, characteristic to respective KLR600 or KLR650. In other words, ignition timing won't change with CDI replacement.

Spark advance curve may vary slightly between CDIs, but probably not detectably so, in my opinion.

I have a Kawasaki KLR600 service manual, but no KLR650 supplement (I have a Clymer Generation 1 KLR650 service manual, in lieu of the Kawasaki publication). Don't think either has information relevant to CDI replacement.

---------------------

Not to put too fine a point on the issue, but . . . I'm unsure of the spark advance mechanism on Kawasaki CDIs. Typically with small engine CDIs, the intensity of the pulse from the pickup coil affects the thyristor switching instant discharging the capacitor and firing the spark plug. At higher rpm, the pulse is more robust earlier in the cycle, consequently firing the spark plug earlier, effectively advancing the spark timing with rpm. A replacement CDI's thyristor's sensitivity may vary from the original, resulting in a different ignition map, but . . . very slightly, I should think.

Does that make sense? Didn't think so! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #6
democles... you fried my brain (just like my CDI) with that last consideration on ignition map :)
Unfortunately electric is my biggest downfall too... that’s why i’m so unsure of what should be done...
I’ve checked the resistence on every single component and connection, the only one that gave a different reading from what the repair manual said was the CDI...
I have not cheched AC voltage nor did I know such test could or should be performed.. although i’m pretty sure the exciter coil is no issue, i have just swapped the stator with a functional one.
I’ll certainly go check Ian H posts to see if i can sort things out...
I the meantime, i’m really thinking to go for the cheaper gen 1 CDI and hope everything goes well...
 

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I just keyed in "Exciter coil voltage" into the 'Search' screen to the top RH side of screen. I think someone in these threads has measured a GEN1 650 VAC of exciter coil in the past year. But I can't remember which.

Kawasaki KLR 650 Forum - Search Results

The simple thing to remember, voltage increases as generator speed increases. That is why I suggested turning the rear wheel. You will get a repetitive pulse, instead of just one or two.

In my shop, we have a home-made 1/2 inch square driver which can be chucked into a 1/2 inch drive reversible drill motor. Then a socket can be taped to the driver.
We have used it to check compression or even start the old in-line 6 cylinder 2 stroke Mercury outboard motors. Or Johnson/Evinrude V4's.
 

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If you are logged in, one can click on the sideways chevron sign next to the last posters name and work backwards thru a thread.
 

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This KLR600 ignition circuit diagram may be of some use:



Some accommodation will be required, adapting the KLR650 CDI to the KLR600 (e.g., KLR650 has two exciter coils, KLR600 only one).

Best of luck!
 

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Damocles,
I believe that the KLR650 exciter coils are wired in 'series' not in 'parallel', only 2 wires, not 3. Not a low rpm/high rpm, separated timing curve system.

But I really don't know.
 

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Yes, two KLR650 exciter coils, wired in series; vs. one KLR600 exciter coil. Two-wire connections in either case. My point in the previous post: The 600 and 650 ignition systems are NOT identical; I haven't scoped out the connections myself; left as an exercise for cogilax when he implants the 650 product into his 600! :)

The timing curve may be a function of the exciter coil pulse intensity, said intensity a function of rpm. At higher rpm, the more robust pulse triggers the thyristor earlier in the cycle, advancing the spark. The timing curve characteristics depend upon the pulse intensity and the sensitivity of the internal CDI thyristor, the threshold for discharging the capacitor. Unknown: Relative sensitivity of 600 and 650 CDI thyristors. Variations here could shape the advance curves quite differently; however, I doubt significant difference exists.

DISCLAIMER: Timing advance mechanism conjecture on my part; I've assumed the easiest/quickest/least expensive technique, but Kawasaki engineers/designers may have chosen another approach.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hey all!

Well... I finally found the correct CDI for cheap on the internet...
I received it yesterday... fit it on the bike... and... still doesn't spark...
I'm starting to worry about this issue, seems like solution won't be too easy to find... well... back to the garage, multimeter on hand, and let's hope I find some bad connection...
 

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Do you get AC from the exciter coils?

Do you get a timing pulse from the pickup coil?

Is your ignition coil sound (resistance check of the windings useful)?

If "Yes" is the answer to all three, and if the CDI is sound . . . don't know why no spark appears . . .

Remote analysis/diagnosis has its limitations; a knowledgeable/competent commercial Kawasaki shop may be in your future! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
after all... GOOD NEWS!!!

Finally found and solved the issue... the diode on the clutch safety switch circuit has somehow died... simply bypassed it and everything went just fine...
Kinda bummed I spent money for nothing... but I'll just keep the stator and CDI as spare parts in case of a future issue...
Can I just leave the diodes out of the circuit or is it better to restore them? I can't understand what they're for...
I also have a couple other questions about electrical circuit but I don't know if I'm allowed to OT on this thread or if it's better to start a new thread...

Thanks to everyone for the great support and help!
 

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Hello Damocles, I know this thread appears to be finished, but i have a relevant question I think. I have just installed a gen2 motor in a 96 C model klr650, so it was a gen1 motor. Now I know the cdi units are different in the way there are powered, gen1 being exciter coil ac voltage, and gen2 being 12v dc. This is my question then, why can't the gen 1 cdi be powered direct from the battery? My reasoning is if the exciter coil produces ac, and then it gets rectified to dc, why not use straight dc input? The current will sail straight through the diodes and continue on as normal to do its job. I have used this principle with success, by using a 3 phase motorcycle shunt type rectifier/regulator as a voltage regulator for my small solar panel that produces 20ish volts DC. What are your thoughts on this idea to power a gen1 cdi off the battery to work with a gen2 motor?
 

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nimac,
The Gen 1 ignition is an (AC Voltage) exciter coil powered Capacitor Discharge Ignition.

The Gen 2 ignition is a DC voltage powered Transistor Controlled Breakerless Ignition.

They both use the magnetic Hall effect Trigger coil along the outer perimeter of the flywheel. But take notice of the length of the 'reluctance strip'. The Gen 2 TCBI flywheel strip is considerably longer.
The Gen 2 inner magnets are stronger, for more charging system power.

You will need to install the Gen 1 stator into the Gen 2 engine. Then either use the Gen 1 flywheel or carefully shorten the reluctance strip on the Gen 2 flywheel to operate properly with the Gen 1 CDI ignition.

This information about the flywheel reluctance strip was deduced the hard way by member "Normk".
 

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Thanks for the very useful info pdwestman, I was wondering if the stators and flywheels are interchangeable! But I'm not sure my question has been addressed, if the ac voltage is rectified inside the cdi before its used to charge up the capacitor, then why wouldn't dc do the same job, because DC happily travels through a full wave rectifier. Is the 12v dc enough to power up the cdi, or does it need higher voltage? (Presuming that the reluctance strip would be altered.)
 

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The AC voltage charge to the capacitor is greater than 12v, but low in amperes. A CDI ignition coil operates on the rising spike of voltage going into the coil From the Capacitor.

The TCBI ignition coil operates on the collapsing magnetic field after voltage saturation by DC current, like an old breaker point system coil.

Click on "Tom Schmitz" member name and search his 'Threads Created'. He did convert his Gen 2 TCBI back to the older Gen 1 CDI. So maybe just read his thread for end to beginning. :)
Or the info might be over here, at his souperdoo site?

STUFF THAT I THINK ABOUT
 

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Quote from pdwestman's post:

nimac,
The Gen 1 ignition is an (AC Voltage) exciter coil powered Capacitor Discharge Ignition.

The Gen 2 ignition is a DC voltage powered Transistor Controlled Breakerless Ignition.

They both use the magnetic Hall effect Trigger coil along the outer perimeter of the flywheel.
Just a comment or two; it ain't the "Hall Effect" on either Generation's ignition system, IMHO. Rather, induced current into coils from a moving magnetic field.

Other stuff, quite correct: The AC voltage from the exciter coils far exceeds 12 VDC from the charging coils; this higher voltage (it may be transformed even higher) is rectified to charge a capacitor; the capacitor is discharged by a THYRISTOR, a silicon-controlled rectifier (SCR), triggered by a pulse from the pickup coil; that's the story of, that's the glory of, CDI!

Generation 2 battery voltage saturates ignition coil primary windings; a pulse from the pickup coil BREAKS this circuit via a THYRISTOR (SCR); the collapsing magnetic field induces current in the secondary ignition coil windings, producing the spark, as pdwestman says.

BTW: Generation 1 and Generation 2 ignition coils are DIFFERENT. Engine may run on either, but mixing them up won't produce optimum operation, in my estimation.
 

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nimac asks,
What are your thoughts on this idea to power a gen1 cdi off the battery to work with a gen2 motor?
A hard row to hoe, with existing hardware!

A higher voltage indeed is required for capacitor charging. Now, there EXIST, both AC-powered and DC-powered CDIs. The DC-powered CDI has internally an INVERTER, converting DC to AC, where its voltage can be "stepped up," then rectified to charge the capacitor.

The Generation 1 KLR650 CDI is of the AC-powered persuasion, persuasively! :)
 
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