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Discussion Starter #1
I’m rebuilding my engine from the ground up. I’ve been searching for a complete gasket set to make it a bit easier. I’ve only found two vendors that have complete sets. Natural and Athena. I’ve found some Cometic gaskets at Schnitz Racing, but these are individual gaskets and a bit pricey too. So I’m not sure if they are worth it. Might be if they seal well and are reusable as claimed.

So any suggestions as to quality of theses kits vs. individual Cometic or OEM gaskets?

FWIW, I am also going to replace all rubber seals in the engine and all wearable components. So far, that really means the cam chain tensioner assembly as I’m not sure what else to consider. I’ve thought about a new cam chain. These are not really expensive from third parties. Although, not sure if the quality compared to OEM. I’ve seen Hot Cams, Moose Racing, and a few unknown - to me - brands.


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I'll never use another Cometic cylinder base gasket on a KLR650, they seem to weep a little bit.
 

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A little bit? They are like that little Italian boy that pees into the fountain.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Well, not to worry on the base or head gasket as that’s included in the EM 719cc BBK. I’m more concerned with the bottom end as I’m going to split the cases.

While it’s open I’m replacing all rubber seals & o-rings and might even go so far as to replace all the bearings and bushings. I haven’t really decided on the bearings & bushings as some have a hefty price tag. If it’s bad it’ll get replaced. But I’m doubtful any are really worn with only 14K on the clock.

I am replacing the tensioner assembly as it’s fairly inexpensive. Even a new OEM cam chain IS under $100. The balancer chain though is over $200. What’s up with that?

FWIW, I’m only thinking of replacing these items as I don’t want to tear into the bottom end again if I can avoid it.


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I am replacing the tensioner assembly as it’s fairly inexpensive. Even a new OEM cam chain IS under $100. The balancer chain though is over $200. What’s up with that?
The price difference between a balancer chain and a cam chain? When you actually see the two chains side-by-side, I think the answer will be obvious to you.

Why replace serviceable, operational parts (such as cam chain tensioner, balancer and camshaft chains, and low-mileage functioning bearings)? Your bike, your money, your choice. Just wondering!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Why replace serviceable, operational parts (such as cam chain tensioner, balancer and camshaft chains, and low-mileage functioning bearings)? Your bike, your money, your choice. Just wondering!

Mostly because I don’t know the actual longevity of the components and don’t want to spit the cases again for the next 10 years to replace components. It’ll only get more difficult as I get older.

Then there is the concern that like a chain spoken set which is always replaced as a set to prevent undue wear you replace them as a set. I’m putting in new cams with new adjustable gears so I will replace the cam chain. And guess I’ll buy a new gear for that too so they can all wear as a set.

Balanced assembly though is questionable. Sounds like it’s a wider multiple link seriously tough chain that might not even be worn much at all at 14K miles. Got an idea how long they last? If less than 50K miles it’s a no brainer for me to replace it. 100K miles or more and I’ll leave it as is.

Same goes for case bearings too. Heck, I found a shop in AZ that will perform an isometric superfine transmission service for half of what CWI does. And I might do that too. It’s a permanent modification that actually improves strength by up to 30%, lowers friction, and makes a smoother shifting transmission. If it lowers the gear noise that would be a significant plus factor for me.

Of course, the big question for me in this thread is gaskets for the bottom end. I’ve done some searching and not much info on the bottom end gasket reputation. Or fit. I suppose I could but the Athena set and spray them with copper sealant from Permatex to make sure they seal well, but they’d never be reusable like the Cometic gaskets if I had to pull the sides again. Or for that matter easy to remove. Not that I want to ever take it apart again. Just trying to plan ahead in case I do.



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Of course, the big question for me in this thread is gaskets for the bottom end. I’ve done some searching and not much info on the bottom end gasket reputation. Or fit. I suppose I could but the Athena set and spray them with copper sealant from Permatex to make sure they seal well, but they’d never be reusable like the Cometic gaskets if I had to pull the sides again. Or for that matter easy to remove. Not that I want to ever take it apart again. Just trying to plan ahead in case I do.
Besides the PERMEABILITY of your base gasket, you must consider its THICKNESS. Already mentioned, compressing additional mixture volume into a fixed volume compression chamber raises chamber pressure. Unless you wish to accept the considerably higher compression ratio (consequent to boring-and-stroking), you might use a THICKER base gasket (included for optional use with 685 kits, I understand), or perhaps double base gaskets, as a countermeasure. The valve timing will be skewed to some extent by elevating the cylinder head, as mentioned, but . . . you're intending degreeing your cams with your adjustable sprockets, so you can easily compensate for the change in driven camshaft chain segment length (resulting from increasing the distance between the crankshaft cam chain sprocket center and the camshaft sprockets centers).

ISOMETRIC SUPERFINE transmission service?????????????? Increases strength of WHAT 30 %? "Inquiring minds want to know!" :)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Besides the PERMEABILITY of your base gasket, you must consider its THICKNESS. /QUOTE]

Ah, don’t have to worry about these as they are included in the 729cc BBK. All the top end gaskets are except for the tensioner and I ordered one of those.

ISOMETRIC SUPERFINE transmission service?????????????? Increases strength of WHAT 30 %? "Inquiring minds want to know!" :)

You’ve never heard of the ISF/REM technique. That’s probably because my phone spell checked me as it’s actually called ... isotropic superfine finish. I’m not sure what the REM abbreviation is though. A quick Google search will loads lots of options.

Short Block Charlie has some videos too. He’s the vendor I found in AZ. His eBay add was $120 for a transmission vs. $250 for CWI. Other vendors charge from $350-$650. A lot depends on how many parts.

Seriously though, go take a look. It’s interesting technology. One really interesting feature is increased longevity. Particularly on transmission gears. It’s been used in racing for years, but has become extremely available in more machine shops.

I’ll see if I can find the 30% reference. I was just browsing a lot on my desktop so don’t have the history on my phone.


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Discussion Starter #11
By the way, I had a brief chat with EM and he also suggested OEM gaskets. So I’ll be making a list and checking it twice before I order them all.

I’ve seen a reference for Yamabond for the center seam. Anyone know of any other recommended products to seal the center seam?

I know I’ll need to check the oil screen a few times afterwards to clean out any potential parts of the deal that break off. Hopefully I can keep that to a minimum with careful application of the product.


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Discussion Starter #12
I’ll see if I can find the 30% reference. I was just browsing a lot on my desktop so don’t have the history on my phone.

Ah, my bad. The reference regarding strength was from being shot peened. Makes me wonder what that costs. Probably more than I want to spend. :)

Quick clip ...

https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/09/29/290344/s1600_1118D80A_540F_4F5A_875B_8DC71CA8AAEA.jpg

Entire thread ...

https://m.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Testing-of-Trick-Engineering-transmission,1347071




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By the way, I had a brief chat with EM and he also suggested OEM gaskets. So I’ll be making a list and checking it twice before I order them all.

I’ve seen a reference for Yamabond for the center seam. Anyone know of any other recommended products to seal the center seam?

I know I’ll need to check the oil screen a few times afterwards to clean out any potential parts of the deal that break off. Hopefully I can keep that to a minimum with careful application of the product.


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I believe that KawasakiBond & YamaBond centercase sealants are both manufactured by ThreeBond. Should be available thru any TuckerRocky / WesternPowerSports, etc aftermarket supplier. Current # is TB1184.

The secret to successful use of case sealant is a very thin coat on both halves of the case. Not an 1/8th inch bead on the RH side, that is what makes 'gummy worms'.

Have you considered modifying the clutch cover oil filter Inlet to the PDW 100% oil filtration while you will be waiting for crank, head & cylinder work to be completed? https://www.klrforum.com/1987-2007-wrenching-mods/15458-oil-pressure-how-much-ya-got-42.html
 
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Discussion Starter #14
I believe that KawasakiBond & YamaBond centercase sealants are both manufactured by ThreeBond. Should be available thru any TuckerRocky / WesternPowerSports, etc aftermarket supplier. Current # is TB1184.
Thanks. Having the part number will make it a lot easier to find.



pdwestman;691655 The secret to successful use of case sealant is a very thin coat on both halves of the case. Not an 1/8th inch bead on the RH side said:
I’m glad you told me as I would have used the 1/8” bead method. I’ll give the thin coat method a try.



pdwestman;691655 Have you considered modifying the clutch cover oil filter Inlet to the PDW 100% oil filtration while you will be waiting for crank said:
Yes. I plan to do so and already have the part number in my Amazon shopping list. I looked it up after reading the article on it. I bought the bolts already, but was debating the rest until I decided to rebuild the engine.

Only question remaining for me on it now is do it myself or have a local machine shop do it for me. It’s been a while, but IIRC there are two options for it.

One is using a more internal placement and one on a more external cover. The later being more likely as it’s a smaller less expensive part to replace. I’d have to go through my bookmarks and history though to pull up the two methods. You probably know them by heart, but my memory is not that good. I’ve researched so many different things that’s it’s kind of a jumble at this point.

I’ve purchased so many parts. Still have more to go. This weekend I’ll be putting up wall cabinets I purchased at Sears to start organizing all my motorcycle maintenance items & parts. Bought a new tool cart so I can put a wooden top on it and have a work surface and place for additional tools. And I still need to buy a set of shelves or cabinet to hold and organize my wheels and plastic parts.

Oh well, at least I’ll be organized when I’m done. :)
 

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One is using a more internal placement and one on a more external cover. The later being more likely as it’s a smaller less expensive part to replace. I’d have to go through my bookmarks and history though to pull up the two methods. You probably know them by heart, but my memory is not that good. I’ve researched so many different things that’s it’s kind of a jumble at this point.

:)
Now wait a minute!
I'll suggest that you Not confuse the 100% oil filtration modification, with the rod pin/cylinder wall oil reduction orifice.
They are 2 separate modifications, even though the pictures over-lap.


Even though I believe that a #43 / 2.26mm / .089inch sized orifice would be sufficiently sized, EM probably would not agree & I do NOT want you to test the oil control orifice blindly on a custom built project.


The 100% oil filtration mod is the drilling of a new, angled, oil inlet hole in the middle of the oil filter cavity and epoxying the original vertical 5:00 oil filter inlet closed, as well as filling the notch in the oil filter cap with epoxy, so as a second o-ring can keep separate the dirty oil from the 100% filtered oil, nothing more.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Now wait a minute!

I'll suggest that you Not confuse the 100% oil filtration modification, with the rod pin/cylinder wall oil reduction orifice.

They are 2 separate modifications, even though the pictures over-lap.


I am aware they are two different procedures and I thank you greatly for pointing out your concerns so I don’t make a mistake and trash my nice new rebuilt engine.

Going back through the video, my referral to the internal or external method, was referring to the installation of the control port in the clutch cover - internal - or oil cap - external - components.

So, if I understand your concerns correctly, it’s best if I skip the control port installation for this build and just perform the filtration modification. Is this correct?



pdwestman;691677[B said:
The 100% oil filtration mod is the drilling of a new, angled, oil inlet hole in the middle of the oil filter cavity and epoxying the original vertical 5:00 oil filter inlet closed, as well as filling the notch in the oil filter cap with epoxy, so as a second o-ring can keep separate the dirty oil from the 100% filtered oil, nothing more. [/B]

I’m going to go back through the article again and pay special attention to detail on this as I did like the idea. I’m not sure I recalled it the way you have it defined as it’s a much more succinctly described process.

I had wondered as well about the longevity of any epoxy holding up without breaking down in a running engine. Been any issue with this?




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Discussion Starter #18
Methinks shot-peening and micropolishing of transmission gears, "Right up your alley," ILove2!

Ok, I know I’m a bit crazy, and I’m definitely willing to spend $120 on performing ISF on the transmission gears. Just for a smoother shifting transmission if nothing else. But shot peening each gear is probably outside of my budget. And I doubt I’d see any real value out of any longevity or strength improve the considering the KLR transmission looks like it is already strong enough for a tractor or tank.

If there was a relatively easy drop in 6 speed transmission I’d be all over that and skip the ISF or a few other modification choices to fund it. Like most, I still look for 6th gear even with a 16 tooth sprocket.


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I am aware they are two different procedures and I thank you greatly for pointing out your concerns so I don’t make a mistake and trash my nice new rebuilt engine.

Going back through the video, my referral to the internal or external method, was referring to the installation of the control port in the clutch cover - internal - or oil cap - external - components.

So, if I understand your concerns correctly, it’s best if I skip the control port installation for this build and just perform the filtration modification. Is this correct?

Correct. But you could tap the threads into the clutch cover or oil filter cap for later installation.
Tom Schmitz aka Souperdoo retained the PDW oil control orifice in his bike when he installed his Wossner 11:1 piston and then performed low mileage break-in oil samples without having ever done so with a stock set of piston & rings. This caused a fair bit of anxiety because neither of use knew/know what the normal break-in ppm of wear metals should/would be.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

I’m going to go back through the article again and pay special attention to detail on this as I did like the idea. I’m not sure I recalled it the way you have it defined as it’s a much more succinctly described process.

I had wondered as well about the longevity of any epoxy holding up without breaking down in a running engine. Been any issue with this?

J-B WELD on a properly cleaned & prepped surface has a very tenacious grip.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________



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Have you considered modifying the clutch cover oil filter Inlet to the PDW 100% oil filtration while you will be waiting for crank, head & cylinder work to be completed? https://www.klrforum.com/1987-2007-wrenching-mods/15458-oil-pressure-how-much-ya-got-42.html
If you will click on the above LINK and have a look the my original working pics, they may add the clarification which you need.

If one were to forget or lose the second o-ring, the system would still perform better than the standard oil filtration system.
If the J-B WELD were to come un-bonded in the 5:00 oil port, the epoxy still couldn't escape, because the o-ring & filter would hold it down into place. The epoxy is on the dirty side of the oil filter, it can not get into the clean side of the oiling system.

What one needs to be cautious of is allowing any metal particles from the floor of the oil filter cavity from flowing into the 6:00 clean oil port to the crankshaft during oil changes. This true of stock system & the 100% filtration system.
On stock systems I temporarily insert a vinyl nipple into that hole. With the crankshaft oil control orifice, I insert my 4mm allen bit. Before tilting bikes to the right to drain the filter cavities.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
If you will click on the above LINK and have a look the my original working pics, they may add the clarification which you need.
Ive tried this a couple of times, but get a message that it is an invalid link.



The epoxy is on the dirty side of the oil filter, it can not get into the clean side of the oiling system.
I thought the epoxy is on the clean side that feeds into the area between the two o-rings and actually feeds the crankshaft. Doesn’t the dirty oil feed into the filter area from the relief valve port - after modification - through the filter and up the metal tube in the filter to the clean area between the oil rings?



pdwestman;691689/ said:
What one needs to be cautious of is allowing any metal particles from the floor of the oil filter cavity from flowing into the 6:00 clean oil port to the crankshaft during oil changes. This true of stock system & the 100% filtration system.

On stock systems I temporarily insert a vinyl nipple into that hole. With the crankshaft oil control orifice, I insert my 4mm allen bit. Before tilting bikes to the right to drain the filter cavities.

That’s good to know and I’ll keep this in mind.


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