Kawasaki KLR Forum banner

21 - 40 of 53 Posts

·
Administrator
Joined
·
8,821 Posts
The starter motor is strained by operating against more compression if the KACR is removed. The gearset is designed to slip in the event of a kick-back and it is unlikely that they would slip in the presence of increased compression due to lack of KACR. As a devout pedant, I must point out that the solenoid is not a solenoid, it is a relay and does not care about compression. Nor would a solenoid ;^).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #22
What you laid out just now about the gears makes sense, thank you.

What causes kick back? I don't think I've experienced that before. I know as load goes up (more compression) electrical motors (starter) pulls more amps, potentially straining the electrical parts.

I am under the assumption that relays and solenoids do the same thing, yes?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
8,821 Posts
What causes kick back?...
I'll probably **** this description up but, in a nutshell, the plug fires at 30* BTDC at idling speeds. If the piston is not moving fast enough it may not have enough inertia to carry it through the compression stroke in the presence of an ignited mixture. If it can't, it slows down and reverses direction. That is kickback.

If you are kickstarting the bike and wearing shorts and flip-flops, it hurts like a mutha.

I am under the assumption that relays and solenoids do the same thing, yes?
Not if you are a pedant. A relay uses an electromagnet to close a pair of contacts. Thus, a small current energizes the electromagnet, which closes a large set of contacts to control a large current.

A solenoid is a device wherein a coil gets energized and drives a ferrous armature from within the coil to push against something. Solenoids may use a fairly large current to do that.

Starter motors were once foot-operated where you just jammed the whole mess into engagement. Then they introduced the Bendrix drive. The Bendix drive has a screw with a spur gear on it. When the motor spins up, the gear is flung out on the screw and into engagement with the ring gear. If they get dirty they can get stuck, either not engaging or not unengaging. With older British sports cars a starter-motor-beating-mallet was pretty much a standard-issue for the tool kit.

The solenoid-operated starter represented an improvement, as it was less susceptible to dirt and grime. It requires a starter relay to operate it, as the solenoid current is pretty high. The starter relay became confused with the solenoid in the same way that 9-volt batteries came to be called 'transistor batteries' because they were used in transistor radios.

Colloquial use notwithstanding, a relay and a solenoid are not the same things, nor do they do the same things.

That's enough pedantry for the day.

A relay:
28410


A solenoid:
28412
 
  • Like
Reactions: ymracing and Pig685

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,759 Posts
The cam shaft bearing caps only need to be 'snug' to check either bearing clearance by Plasti-Gage or for lateral end play. No NEED to engage the cam chain or the chain tensioner for either measurement.

And it was RH EX camshaft bearing clearance measured by Plasti-Gage that I supplied in previous post, as you requested.

I've never had any reason to measure cam guide - groove clearance, or clearance between KACR & RH bolt tower.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,759 Posts
The sprag clutch or one-way clutch on the back-side of the flywheel is what is prone to 'slip-then-grip' with Really Ugly Noises when forced to deal with higher than normal (125psi) start-up compression loading.

The type & quality of engine oils used with-in the engine can also have a large effect on the secure engagement & longevity of the sprag clutch and transmission drive clutch.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pig685

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
Update: Progress has been slow for a few reasons, namely weather and a close family loss.

Alright so the bearing clearances were within factory spec, so good news there. The bad news is that when the EX cam is installed properly, there is the slightest bit of contact with the KACR and the head. I'm shocked the engine ran as well as it did at this point.

The gap between the cap groove and the cam spline/ring is no more than .008-.009" and that seems perfectly fine. The KACR contacts the head regardless of which direction the cam is pushed in (left or right) which leads me to think something is wrong or loose with my KACR. On the KACR there are two surfaces that contact the head during rotation, but they don't stop the rotation if that makes sense.

Now the actual KACR mechanism looks and actuates fine, but now I'm wondering if it's sticking too far out of the cam end? What looks to be an o-ring is visible and it seems that should be in the cam?
IMG_20210128_145829.jpg IMG_20210128_145900.jpg
I can't think of what else could cause my situation here. I have my valve shims and other small parts ordered and on the way, and I want to button everything up feeling confident nothing is wrong with this KACR.

Very confused with this issue!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
So I just did a web image search, and at this point I'm 100% confident the KACR isn't properly seated in the cam. Why? I have no clue. Can this be related to the intake cam end plug coming loose? I'm thinking it is.

How can it be inserted more without damaging the cam?

When I did the clutch, I found old motor pieces blocking the oil strainer pretty good. Is it possible the pressure relief valve sent crazy high pressures to the cams and blew the intake plug out and was going to blow out the KACR? Is it pressed in? Could explain why the valve cover was leaking so bad despite at seals looking good.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,759 Posts
So you are telling us this engine has had a previous Major repair, correct?

I do believe that the KACR (and the Intake cam soft plug) are simply pressed into the camshaft by the factory.
It now makes me wonder if someone pressed them out & back in to potentially clean them out? And didn't press the KACR in deep enough?
And didn't use any press fit sealant (Loc-Tite) on them as they reassembled them? (I'm amazed that anyone could re-time a KACR position properly to have proper cold cranking compression.)

Due to the oem Tiny Hole (1/16") in all three of the oil feed tube banjo bolts and the overly generous 3mm hole in the crankshaft bottom rod pin, it would be nearly impossible IMO for oil pressure to be So High at the camshafts to have done that.
(The combined area of the 4 oil holes in the 4 camshaft bearings is substantially larger than a single 1/16" feed hole.)

My personal engine is using 1/8" holes in the oil feed banjo bolts and a 2.18mm crankshaft oil feed orifice. But I do have a modified PRV to limit my maximum oil pressure to less than 30 psi. I never measure more than 9 psi at the cams with my modifications.
I have measured a stock engine at 22 psi at the cams with 30F 20W50 oil for a short bit on full cold start enrichener.

You could remove the tiny spring from the KACR, stand the cam on the sprocket bolt & use a drift punch & hammer to see if the KACR can be seated deeper?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #29
My other idea is maybe my engine was put together by the guy they fired at the Thailand assembly factory that week. Both intake and exhaust cam plugs incorrectly installed apparently.

The original owner put a schnitz 685 kit, I can only assume due to some type of engine damage. The chunks I found in the oil strainer were substantial, they were all aluminum i checked with a magnet.

I am the 3rd owner. The 2nd owner put 5k miles on the bike, probably nothing besides oil changes done by 2nd owner. He didn't know much about the bike, but had a printout of the CL ad that the original owner posted.

I'll try to knock the KACR back in, hopefully that works.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,759 Posts
I'll try to knock the KACR back in, hopefully that works.
Depending on how soft or hard it may drive in, would you Trust it to stay in?

Maybe new camshafts would be best, we still don't know if a crankshaft soft plug will fit the intake camshaft, do we?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #31
I tried to whack the KACR in further, it didn't move at all. My friend has a press, but am I risking bending the cam by trying that?

I measured the intake cam end exactly at 17mm, hopefully some web searches turn up something.

I really don't want to buy new cams, and if I did I'd be pretty tempted to go aftermarket. Has anyone ever put KACR on an aftermarket cam? I'm surprised they don't come with it, or at least the option.

I know KLR motors aren't power monsters, but I'm still surprised how few threads (practically none) there are on aftermarket cams. Yes I know they have been described as not good for stock KLRs.

I know porting is advisable if going with aftermarket cams too...but would a 685 with exhaust, klx needle, airbox mods, and uni filter get some benefit from aftermarket cams?

I also wish more people had stories of KACR removal so I didn't feel like a fool, whether that's removing mine or running an aftermarket cam without one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #32
After looking at diagrams, the KACR is pressed in at the factory. Hopefully the standard procedure is to do this after final cam grinding. I think I'm going to try this when I can meet with my friend that has a press.

I couldn't find any plugs that will work, but I did find a seller of 17mm aluminum stock... I don't see a reason I couldn't cut a piece to length and press it in with red loctite.

May take some time but I'll report back.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
690 Posts
Might as well try pressing it back into the cam. If you bend the cam, well, you were gonna hafta buy another one anyway. I’ll let PDWestman or Tom reply on the aftermarket cams, as I don’t have experience with them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
Yea I figure there's no harm in trying. The problem with aftermarket cams is it seems few have any experience with them.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
8,821 Posts
Few have experience with them because they are way outside the definition of "low-hanging fruit" and "inexpensive".

KLRChris may have fiddled with them, perhaps you could look around his site.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DPelletier

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,759 Posts
The biggest problem with aftermarket cams is that the engine also needs cylinder head porting and adjustable cam sprockets to allow the cams to be degreed/timed to operate/flow as designed. Otherwise, the engine may run Worse!

One very knowledgeable mechanic / machinist / engine tuner extraordinaire built a few very excellent degreeable sprockets a few years ago, Cheaply!
Regrettably he didn't find enough owners with enough patience to properly install them to continue selling them.
I simply didn't have any disposable income at the time. :(

Read this, Adjustable cam gear set for the KLR650 will allow you to move power band And everything else on his site!
Use the drop-down menus and click on Any Bolded or Hi-Lighted word or phrase with-in each section!
Lots to be Learned!!

ps, Tom Schmitz installed a set of KLRChris degreeable cam sprockets. Go to his Souperdoo site!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #37
Oh I've already read those sites and I sent Chris an email about his cam experiences. Waiting on reply.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #38
Mini update: the crankshaft plug recommended looks like it should work. The end with the edge measures 17.25mm and the small size tapers a bit below 17mm. After doing some reading I will use red loctite, and use wood, a properly sized socket, and a machine press to press in the KACR into the EX cam fully, and the plug into the IN cam.

In the meantime, I enlarged the "L" hole on top of my airbox some more, and I am currently grinding the header pipe welds smooth for better flow. These things, in addition to a clean air filter, and new spark plug will hopefully bring some life back into the motor with valves freshly re-shimmed.

Today I completed installing the external oil feed with new banjo bolts with the enlarged hole sizes. In the future I will look into the oil filter cavity restrictor mod more. I have found the related threads for this subject, but still have some questions about some of the terminology. I have never heard of drill bits with a numerical system (ex #44 etc) and need to reread everything.

Hoping this is the beginning of the end of the 'fix-it-before-i-ride-it' phase.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #39
The plug seemed to work perfectly as far as I can tell, I used red loctite to be safe. The KACR did press in fully which is awesome, and it didn't go in easily... Which is good because I'm pretty confident it won't ever come back out. I can only hope it's oriented correctly as I had no way to remove or index it without risking cam damage. My bike has never had a starting issue so hopefully everything is good.

This has me wondering if my bike is a perfect example of the 'bad Thailand assembly' that I've seen mentioned. Was 2006 first year for Thailand assembly? How else could both the Intake cam plug fall out and the KACR be incompletely inserted/pressed in? I'm baffled by this.

Since my bike was technically in-spec for valve clearances (intake barely), the plug must have come loose since whenever they were last checked. So odd, what would make it pop out after at least 20k or more miles?

I should be able to get a lot of reassembly done tomorrow, no promises as I move slowly and carefully with engines. I have some repainting to do, but can't wait to show off my pig when I'm done. Guess this is end of thread, thanks everyone that gave input.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,759 Posts
This thread will not end unless you stop posting updates, which I do look forward to.
Such as,
Current CCC at WOT?
Ease of start up? At various temps, at various altitudes?
CCC at WOT after 10k miles?
Valve tappet clearance after 10,000 miles?
CCC at WOT after any valve tappet adjustments?
Oil consumption at 75 mph+ for 200 miles? Times 5 fill-ups?
Oil consumption at 75 mph+ for 200 miles / 1000 miles after installing a #44 / 2.18mm / 0.086" drilled oil control orifice into the oil filter cap 6:00 oil port?
BSL oil report after 1st 3000 miles + a second BSL oil report after 3-5k more miles? Which oil are you using?

It is all up to you.

Ride Safe.
 
21 - 40 of 53 Posts
Top