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Discussion Starter · #81 ·
So I'm very annoyed right now. One of my absolute least favorite things is redoing something that should be simple in theory but takes time to get to or to prep. Apparently the water pump shaft oil seal behind the clutch cover is slowly leaking. Its slow, but I'm 99% sure the oil leak is coming from the weep hole.

Yes I replaced this seal when I did the clutch, I took my sweet time and used a bolt with washers and spacers to "press" the new seals in. I double checked to properly locate the sockets I used as press tools for the seals, to prevent damage of course. I cleaned everything beforehand etc and followed all written procedures I could find. It was a tight fit, I vividly remember the effort it took to install, and yes it went in straight the whole time. The seal is fully pressed in, and the coolant seals seem fine.

Not sure if I'm just venting or asking for suggestions. I can ride the bike at least ~300-400 miles before needing to top the oil off, and at that point it's a little under the top of the sight glass (about a third of the width of your pinky nail). The drips are collecting in the bash guard right below the weep hole, which was found to be wet after my last ride. It makes the bash guard and under the engine filthy from debris it picks up. I think it didn't leak for a while but started after enough rides I guess.

If I muster up the effort to take the engine/clutch cover back off, I'm not certain I'll be able to tell what the 'issue' is with the seal, as it was undamaged after install so should still be that way. Very annoyed.
 

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f I muster up the effort to take the engine/clutch cover back off, I'm not certain I'll be able to tell what the 'issue' is with the seal, as it was undamaged after install so should still be that way. Very annoyed.
Many times people do not smooth the chamfer of the impeller shaft with emery cloth. And then they don't get the cover 'Square' with the impeller shaft as they slide the oil seal onto the shaft. This snags the lip of the oil seal & rolls the lip inside-out and then the garter spring jumps out of its tiny groove on the back side of the oil seal lip.

You have two choices, either extract both seals from the exterior and save the clutch cover gasket and install new seals over the shaft & into the bore. (There is an Australian? video, I think). Or destroy two gaskets & roll the seal lip & garter spring back into place and try not to repeat the error.
 

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Discussion Starter · #83 ·
Install of the cover was smooth, I wouldn't think I did what you're describing above with the snagging or seal lip getting caught. I checked the impeller shaft for any signs of wear, and cleaned it well. I was very cautious of the shaft threads and prevented contact.

Obviously something I did went wrong. The bike was oily as hell when I got it and the clutch springs were toast. I never saw it running (cleaned up) until after I did this (faulty) preventative repair. May have been leaking before too, but the clutch side had definitely never been apart.

On the bright side at least it isn't burning oil! I'll have it apart to see what happened when I have a chance.
 

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I'll bet that you rolled the seal lip.
 

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EM, The specs in the 1987-2018 service manuals of 77-124 psi are with a normally active KACR. (And proper valve tappet clearances.)

The specs of 134-185 psi in the 1984 kick-start only KLR600 are with a De-Activated KACR (But the service manual does Not say so! Or show how to de-activate.). A de-activated KLR650 will be very similar.

That is about the same 50 psi spread between maximum capable and Minimum Required Compression for good starting & strong running, I think.
Paul,
I know there is a fairly wide spec in what runs, and what is healthy.
There was a bulletin about the 2008/9 kacr, and some dealers were told to remove some material from the pin. My experience tells me that the kacr can vary a bit, and it's best to disable it for testing. It's not hard to do. I can also understand why they wouldn't want the dealer guys to mess with disabling the kacr, one reason being they might forget to remove whatever they used to disable it.
The manual can very useful, but there's no way I'd consider it the ultimate authority in every case.
Again, based on my experience, I would not expect an engine that measures 175 psi and 125 psi with the kacr disabled to run the same.
 

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125 psi with the kacr disabled to run the same.
125 psi with a disabled KACR would be 9 psi below minimum specs on a KLR600. Probably would need to be push started on a 40F morning at 5300 ft altitude. So it would definitely be time for a rebuild.

And of course an engine with 40 - 50 less psi of CCC would not run as strong as an engine with near maximum compression.

As a franchised Kawasaki Dealership thru July 2016, to the best of my memory we never once received any Official Service Bulletin about Any Model with an Automatic Compression Release. The only official Gen 2 KLR650 Service Bulletins that I can find are the Muffler Mounting bolts and the Wire Harness chaffing.

I did my first KACR pin height reduction in 1987 or 1988 on the KSF250 Mojave atv which had a KLR250 based engine.
That modification showed up in K-Tech News, which was a dealer only service tips booklet. My first KLR650 KACR pin height reduction was on the 'slightly improved' 1996 KLR650 models.
 

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125 psi with a disabled KACR would be 9 psi below minimum specs on a KLR600. Probably would need to be push started on a 40F morning at 5300 ft altitude. So it would definitely be time for a rebuild.

And of course an engine with 40 - 50 less psi of CCC would not run as strong as an engine with near maximum compression.

As a franchised Kawasaki Dealership thru July 2016, to the best of my memory we never once received any Official Service Bulletin about Any Model with an Automatic Compression Release. The only official Gen 2 KLR650 Service Bulletins that I can find are the Muffler Mounting bolts and the Wire Harness chaffing.

I did my first KACR pin height reduction in 1987 or 1988 on the KSF250 Mojave atv which had a KLR250 based engine.
That modification showed up in K-Tech News, which was a dealer only service tips booklet. My first KLR650 KACR pin height reduction was on the 'slightly improved' 1996 KLR650 models.
I can't understand why you keep bringing up the KL600. There isn't enough data for it to be significant, compared to the 650. There's too many differences, and way too many more 650's for anything data-wise regarding the 600 to be significant. Oil use, or otherwise.
I really don't think being a dealer (or history of same) is especially important in stuff like this. Kawasaki and the dealers denied the balancer system had issues publicly for many years, even after there were settled lawsuits about the issue. Yes, they were sealed. The whole reason we started having tech days was due to the dealers not taking care of the customer, whether it was the balancer system problems, or something like a valve adjustment. They would charge the customer for work not done, or completely lie to them about stuff. There are good people and good mechanics at some dealers, but to me, it doesn't confer any special status. (there's also an argument technique called "appeal to authority" - l don't think it's particularly valid) I've personally had to help several dealer mechanics understand how to upgrade the balancer system, and let a customer take pics for the dealer showing how to remove the rotor after they stripped 3 pullers and ruined the threads in the rotor on one engine. After these experiences, dealers are just regular people, some great, some good, some full of bs, no special authority when it comes to the KLR650. Customers have shared many stories with me regarding situations with dealers involving the KLR650. I've had somewhere around 1000 individual attendees come to my tech days or separate visits, not counting phone call support, so I think I have reasonable experience with problem solving on the KLR650. (not perfect though)
Removing material from the KACR pin was discussed a fair bit quite a while back, it might have been 2009 or so. My memory isn't perfect, so the date might be off.
I don't want to get into arguments, I just want to make my position clear on this stuff.
Life has been hard enough the last few years dealing with cancer and the continuing after effects of the chemo. I have limited time and energy, so my participation here will be minimal. I wish everyone well.
 

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EM,
The reason that I brought up the KL600 is because of the compression specs printed in its service manuals are with a de-activated KACR vs the compression specs printed in the KL650 service manuals are with Fully Active KACR. Even though neither service manuals actually states so.
If you had not of mentioned a reading of 9 psi below minimum de-activated specs, ("I would not expect an engine that measures 175 psi and 125 psi with the kacr disabled to run the same.") I wouldn't have mentioned the KL600 a second time.
I was involved in the 650.net KACR discussions several times in the 2009-2012 time frames.


Most everyone else,
The maximum compression readings with fully active KACRs or de-activated KACR's will be nearly identical between healthy examples of the 2 models of engines. Tom Schmitz has videos of testing his KLR650 the 2 different ways.
An engine with near maximum de-activated KACR compression reading will also have near maximum compression reading with a (properly built by factory) fully active KACR.
So it stands to reason that either model of engine with a mere 135 psi (minimum KL600 spec) with deactivated KACR would have near the 77 psi (minumum KL650 spec) with properly built & fully active KACR.
From there a proper Leak-Down test can help suggest the necessary repairs.

Miss-timed KACRs can take a healthy engine with say 175 psi of de-activated KACR cold cranking compression down Below the required 77 psi with fully active KACR and create cold starting issues with an otherwise Healthy Engine.
This is what happened in 1996, 2008 & 2009 on too regular of basis.
If a KACR is miss-timed by the factory during exhaust camshaft construction, we mechanics can reduce the KACR pin height to allow the RH ex valve to close earlier & retain more compression. Just like reshimming that RH ex valve from say .002 to .010 inches will gain cold cranking compression by closing that valve earlier during starter motor rpm, with a fully active KACR.

How did we get on to this subject, Dallas? :)
Please correct me if I’m wrong but on CV carbs I always prop the slide open too since it won’t have sufficient vacuum to open at cranking speed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #90 · (Edited)
Here's one more shot. I measured the shaft diameter and measured the diameter of the seal and the seal has a smaller diameter, which makes me not understand why it was leaking. Like I said before, the install went smoothly and so I'm at a loss to understand why it was leaking out of the weep hole.
28975
 

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Are You sure that the seal is properly oriented? It looks like like to me You should flip it around so the markings are towards water pump. Maybe someone else who has done the seal before can confirm this
 

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Discussion Starter · #92 ·
Are You sure that the seal is properly oriented? It looks like like to me You should flip it around so the markings are towards water pump. Maybe someone else who has done the seal before can confirm this
Wow, you're 100% right! Boy does that make me feel dumb. Guess I'll be ordering a new one because I doubt i can remove it without damaging it. Thanks 👍
 

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Yeah it is installed backwards. You will also need to order a new coolant pump seal & probably both gaskets.
 

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Discussion Starter · #94 ·
Yea the case gasket separated in a million pieces. Interestingly the OE one didn't fall apart when I did the clutch, and it actually stuck to the cover side nicely. I replaced it thinking that was the smart thing to do, now I wish I didn't.

I actually have an extra set of waterpump gaskets/seals ao at least I have that going for me. I'm going to try a reusable gasket this time. I find it weird that the seal being flipped around caused all the leaking, but that must be it. The shaft doesn't look tapered in that area.

Obviously this was my mistake, but I sure hope this is the last time for awhile that I take this side of the engine apart. On the other side I still need to check the EM doohickey/adjust it, and check the chain guides.
 

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The garter spring on an oil seal Always faces any potential pressure.
 
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Do not feel bad about the seal, next time when you replace that kind of a seal You will remember that flat side with markings goes on dry side, hope You have a good ride without anymore issues, this thread has been helpful to me also, a lot of good info, thnx everyone
 

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Discussion Starter · #97 ·
I checked my parts boxes and actually have both the coolant and oil seals which is awesome, just had to order a new clutch cover seal. If you look at a diagram, there's a thin washer behind the water pump impeller...

For reasons unknown, mine was a bit bent upon removal and I know it wasn't that way on install. It's probably fine to replace it with a generic washer correct? Assuming the thickness is in the correct ballpark. Yes I used a good in/lb torque wrench on install and I have no idea why the thin washer got bent up. I kept it for comparison if I replace it, and I wasn't sure if it's designed to bend/conform for some reason. I dont remember the original being bent when I did the clutch.
 

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A generic washer will probably RUST.

Stainless steel of appropriate thickness could be ok, too thick could cause the impeller to drag on the WP cover. Too thin or missing entirely and the WP will lose volume of flow, which could cause inefficiency of the system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #99 ·
Yea I thought about that, I'll use my measuring caliper that's never let me down and see what I can find in stainless. On prior projects I've been able to achieve accuracy within about .005" on things with it, which should be adequate for this purpose. I can't justify buying an entire seal kit for one washer, and I can't find the correct washer sold individually anywhere. Shipping would probably be more than the washer anyways. Maybe I can flatten mine out. Thanks
 

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Yea I thought about that, I'll use my measuring caliper that's never let me down and see what I can find in stainless. On prior projects I've been able to achieve accuracy within about .005" on things with it, which should be adequate for this purpose. I can't justify buying an entire seal kit for one washer, and I can't find the correct washer sold individually anywhere. Shipping would probably be more than the washer anyways. Maybe I can flatten mine out. Thanks
How would a flat washer between two flat surfaces get bent? Make sure the surfaces are indeed flat. Unless it’s a wave washer I suggest you just flatten it.
 
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