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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited by Moderator)
What year are you riding? How many miles? What oil (be specific) you useing? HERE is the BIGGEY, WHAT TEMPERATURE?

I've found that maybe the best place to measure temperature, is the center of the oil filter cap, with a infrared thermometer. Can do it while riding, with cruise control. Even uphill, 4th gear, full throttle, 7200RPM. (I will advise against this tactic, for safety reasons)

The Specs call for,
10W40 (I assume petroleum) probably does not matter if you have SYNTHETIC
194 degrees F., thats 90 degrees C. to you WILLY's.
4000 RPM
Correct.

I beleive, I have found a way to IMPROVE IT. After 2 1/2--3 years.

STOP THE LEAKAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Willys wanted MORE, I wanted LESS. GO FIGURE!

1987 KL650-A1
64,160 MILES
Kawasaki 10W40 petroleum
13 PSI @ 194 f. @4000RPM

IT was MORE!
pdwestman
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Can ANYBODY recite the oil pressure for a 1984-1986 KLR600?
pdwestman
 

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I bought the gauge but left it at that after learning that it was such a wide band of pressures from idle to full RPM or cruising RPMs.
I have the infra red tester.....but haven't used it in this respect eyt. My bike is still waiting to be started up for the first time after all of this season's modifications.
I have read there are a few locations to tap into at. I do like the place that gets the highest pressure for sure. But also worry about IF the head is getting fed the full amount seeing as it's the most suceptable for oil starvation issues.
I am all ears and will PM you and we can discuss it....thanks.
 

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Can ANYBODY recite the oil pressure for a 1984-1986 KLR600?
pdwestman
11-21 psi @ 4000 rpm (Clymer, p. 155 (2003 Edition).

Wattman has measured oil pressures approaching 70 psi on a cold bike (data on the Thermo-Bob website: http://www.watt-man.com/uploads/KLROilPressure.pdf ), the figure in the Clymer manual at 4000 rpm obviously is measured at normal oil operating temperature (ca., 194 degrees F.).

Since oil is an incompressible liquid, and pressure is equal in all directions in a closed system, I'd imagine the oil pressure at the factory oil pressure measurement port (adapter and gauge required) would provide a valid indication of the lubrication system's dynamic health.
 

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In a perfect world maybe but in the real world where anything can alter the path of oil to each area then I disagree. With our engines it's the head that we need to be overly concerned with, seeing as how so many have ruined their cam bearings etc. When you have as much money as I or some do in their engines it becomes more of a thought that what if....?
It sort of isn't a closed system imho as the oil is basically dumped after it gets past the cam caps or cam bearings. It free falls into the sump to be pressurized all over again. If it was a closed system there should be pressure at all times within the loop of travel the oil lives in. In our systems it has one point where it's free of any pressure and then needs to be sent back into service so to speak.
Yes I have read that the pressures go from the numbers you have suggested. That is a problem when buying a gauge to easily read the pressures. If you get the 0-100 psi gauge it's almost a waste of time trying to accurately read the pressure when it's around the 11-14 psi range. So you buy the 0-30 or 0-60 psi gauge and then you have an over pressure situation for the gauge and risk damaging it just to be able to see more accurately the low pressures our bikes run at. So it is a problem in tht respect. This is why I haven't installed my gauge yet. I could buy a digital gauge but I haven't looked for one thinking that they would be expensive so to speak. Even the dial gauges aren't that cheap if you get a good one.
So, that is where I am at this time with my oil system gauge wise........still thinking about the costs etc and also where exactly I wish to pull this information from. I would like to see the pressure just before it arrives at the head at the banjo fitting but.......that only gives me one location compared to the whle system as in closer to the pump before it starts to split the pressures into it's different systems. I know it's very unlikely that the lower end will starve for oil unless the top had already been run almost dry. So once again it's the head that is imho the most important location to watch oil pressures. I haven't seen where it was the oil pump itself that failed it's usually the lack of oil in the sump that causes the oil issues.
 

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In a perfect world maybe but in the real world where anything can alter the path of oil to each area then I disagree.
Then Pascal's Law has been repealed, and replaced by . . . willys' Law! :)

Do you doubt the Thermo-Bob oil pressure vs. temperature data from Wattman, also?

http://www.watt-man.com/uploads/KLROilPressure.pdf

I defer to your fluid dynamics experiments and conclusions, willys! You may indeed achieve more efficient lubricant distribution, somehow confirmed by optimum location of an oil pressure gauge . . .
 

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Here we go once again...out with the books and inexperienced opinions.....I am only interested in the oil system where there is a pressure to be maintained as I'm sure most are. Putting a gauge in one location or the other is just a way to read that specific psi at that location, not to alter or maniplulate the pressure in the system. I know from what has happened to others where the pressure differences are and what happens to the parts in those areas are. I have repaired and replaced enough to see with my own eyes what the problem is at these locations. I have said above I want to see what pressure is at the cams as it is where 99% of all damages occur at. Until you loos this pressure the reast of the system usually stays within a safe psi. I have seen one lower end go bad before the head....and I still can't explain it! The engine had maybe 1/2 cup of oil in it! The head was perfect but the lower bears were all shot. Doesn't make sense.
I'm not disbuting the laws of fluid dynamics or trying to change the laws to suit myself.......I never claimed to do such a thing. I just stated that I'm only interested in reading the PSI at specific locations and want to easily be able to read those pressures using a single gauge accurately.

Once again....you are starting an arguement over nit picking theory against what has been said. Typical of your mentality once again.

And once again I'll step out as not to inflame this thread and contiue in the PM world......
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
11-21 psi @ 4000 rpm (Clymer, p. 155 (2003 Edition).

Wattman has measured oil pressures approaching 70 psi on a cold bike.
Damocles, 11-21 psi is for KLR650's. Supposedly?
KLR600's according to original factory manual #99924-1050-01.
Is 28-36 PSI----- 194f.-----4000 RPM----10W40.

When I started this project in Nov. 2012, my '87 KLR650-A1 produced these numbers.
Temp F.-----main psi-----cam psi-----RPM
68------------67-------------8-----------1650
167-----------11-------------<1---------2000
170-----------25-------------<1---------3000
174-----------32------------->1---------4000
179-----------42-------------1.5---------5000
183-----------50-------------1.75--------6000
195-----------29-------------<1----------4000

The '87 -A1 uses IT'S own crankshaft#.
Like I said earlier, Willy's wanted MORE, I wanted LESS.

Nobody has ASKED, what leakage, WHERE?

Answer: The pressure relief VALVE in the clutch cover.
Mine, in the engine and a new one both leaked substantially.
Using an Ace Hardware 7/16" steel ball, part# 58122F, valve lap compound and piece of rubber fuel line, I was able to lap the seat.
Zero leakage at 22 PSI.

Got to do some work. Later.
pdwestman
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Has anybody else ever measured CAM BANJO CENTER of bolt, PSI?
pdwestman
 

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Then Pascal's Law has been repealed, and replaced by . . . willys' Law! :)

Do you doubt the Thermo-Bob oil pressure vs. temperature data from Wattman, also?

http://www.watt-man.com/uploads/KLROilPressure.pdf

I defer to your fluid dynamics experiments and conclusions, willys! You may indeed achieve more efficient lubricant distribution, somehow confirmed by optimum location of an oil pressure gauge . . .
Pascal's law only applies to a closed static system. In a dynamic system fluid flow, passage restrictions, direction changes, leak points, velocity changes. among other things can alter the pressure from its source to its endpoint.
Regards....justjeff
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I can't hardly beleive the dis-interest I'm seeing here.

2003 KLR650-A17, 26,916miles, Kawasaki 20W50 petroleum
69f.------Main 52psi----cam banjo [email protected]
195f.----Main 11psi----cam banjo >[email protected]
195f.----Main 3.5psi---cam banjo <[email protected]

Doesn't anybody want MORE?
pdwestman
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Did ya notice, that the pressure releif valve didn't even have to operate, its leaking a plenty, even on COLD 20W50.
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That is very interesting pdwestman. Especially the big difference from cold to hot. I would not have suspected the hot pressure would be so low. So what are you thinking?
Regards....justjeff
 

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Discussion Starter #15
justjeff,
Refer to post #1, STOP the LEAKAGE!
Answer, Refer to post #9, Lap the releif valve seat with valve compound.

I may have been the first ever to DO IT, I don't know, but at the end of my mods.
Someone needs to do it before any other mods, maybe while cleaning the screen or when doing a water pump seal or just because they have the ability to do a before and after oil pressure test.
Which I STRONGLY suggest. TEST and RECORD, PSI at what ever temp you like, just make temp the same. I used a infra-red thermometer.
 

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I think that the average KLRista doesn't realize the implications of what you are trying to do or change and why you are wanting to do this. I do. It's only when you start understanding why and what it is that you start to want more information. It was extremely interesting hearing all of you findings etc and your past experiences with your KLR.
Like you I want as much oil up at the head as possible and I want to have an accurate guage showing me this pressure so IF, anything changes in the head I can adjust so that I can save my head. I have only ever seen one lower end get burned up from oil issues, but many heads, cams etc.......with the amount of money we spend on modifying our engines especially the head, this information is extremely informative.
We both have been looking at the flow to the head but for different reasons. We have both done similar modifications to the oil flow characteristics as to get more oil to the head.
Like I said when people understand why and what for then they will ask for more....but until they have a personal interest....they won't.
IMHO...it's their loss.......to each their own.
I wouldn't take it personally at all........the idea is to share the knowledge but as the saying goes.....you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink......
I'll go back to the PM world as to not inflame the thread......with arguementive theory........
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I can't hardly beleive the dis-interest I'm seeing here.

2003 KLR650-A17, 26,916miles, Kawasaki 20W50 petroleum
69f.------Main 52psi----cam banjo [email protected]
195f.----Main 11psi----cam banjo >[email protected]
195f.----Main 3.5psi---cam banjo <[email protected]

Doesn't anybody want MORE?
pdwestman
I just want to give you all, the WARMING UP numbers for this bike.

168f.-----Main 6psi----cam banjo <[email protected]
168f.-----Main 10psi---cam banjo [email protected]
172f.-----Main 13psi---cam banjo [email protected]
175f.-----Main 17psi---cam banjo <2psi-----[email protected]
190f.-----Main 20psi---cam banjo <[email protected]
pdwestman
 

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Hi Guys!
I feel like I have come into the conversation in the middle. Maybe you could explain a little more about how this project started and what it is about. I know about KLR's burning up heads when the oil level gets too low but was not aware of how low the pressure to the head is during normal operation. Is this common or is that what you are trying to find out? How much did the oil pr increase after lapping the vale seat?
Regards....justjeff
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
justjeff,
Don't feel bad or left out of the loop. Even when we start a new thread, especially concerning OIL, we are all starting in the MIDDLE.

T748, was some help. He posted, "Oil Pressure light switch" on my birthday last year. Kinda re-lit the fire under me. He temporarily, at least connected a pressure gauge to the Main Galley. Kinda made him worry un-necessarily. Full of oil, is GOOD ENOUGH! But can it be BETTER?

I THINK IT CAN.
FIRST. Measure your existing oil pressure / pressures. RECORD your readings!
SECOND. Stop the leakage, from the pressure releif valve.
THIRD. Re-measure oil pressures, RECORD your readings.
We'll see where IT can go, from there. The pump has plenty of volume, we just need to make better USE of what we have, IMO.
pdwestman
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Hi Guys!
I feel like I have come into the conversation in the middle. How much did the oil pr increase after lapping the vale seat?
Regards....justjeff
justjeff,
I do not know how much, just lapping the releif valve seat will increase anybodys pressure. Depends on HOW MUCH the releif valve is currently leaking?
We learn from experience, our own or others.
I found the leakage after 3 other mods to my oil system. And made this and one other mod at the same time. Now helping others to avoid my error. I was IN THE MIDDLE again.
pdwestman
 
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