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Absolutely not. Illustration purposes only.

In post #29 I wrote,” Damocles: first, as I noted, I have no idea whether cutting coils off the slide spring has a positive effect. In all my years of messing with and reading about CV carbs, especially the ones installed on Harleys (same as the KLR), I have not found any data that supports this modification., and I have very rarely even read about it.”

This discussion was used to demonstrate the difference between spring rate and spring pressure, and to show that cutting coils off a spring—any spring—does increase spring rate, but does not necessarily increase spring pressure, if it has preload. I used the example of the carb slide spring because that’s what initiated the discussion and because everyone is familiar with it, so it’s a good example of the principles. NO ONE said that was a good idea.
 

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Wow, you guys weren't very friendly during this chat. I guess some have vested interests in these products. It's just a comment, don't lose your mind. He's entitled to think and say what he wants. I personally don't like the Thermobob due to the fact that it gets to be 120-130 degrees out in the open sun of Las Vegas and that can push a bikes limit on cooling. Therefore anything that slows down the cooling process has to go. I finally found a good combination of low opening temp fan switch and a new aluminum radiator to make it through again.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
Wow, you guys weren't very friendly during this chat. I guess some have vested interests in these products. It's just a comment, don't lose your mind. He's entitled to think and say what he wants. I personally don't like the Thermobob due to the fact that it gets to be 120-130 degrees out in the open sun of Las Vegas and that can push a bikes limit on cooling. Therefore anything that slows down the cooling process has to go. I finally found a good combination of low opening temp fan switch and a new aluminum radiator to make it through again.
A couple of thoughts:
The guy that designed the ThermoBob lives in the Phoenix area. You might not know that. It gets a little warm there too. Also, you might have missed that he has 185K miles on his original, rings, piston, bore, valves, etc. He's done regular maintenance, did the doo, adjusted valves. He even shares test data for the ThermoBob.
Another one: one guy in this thread has a pattern of behavior. His business model: to tear down someone else's product, then promote his own. I asked him for data. He deflected, and played word games, and continually did so.
There's some pretty bright people, well experienced on KLR650s on this forum. If someone is talking BS, there's a fair chance they will get called on it. He's had plenty of chances to share good intel, and never took one.
I've been very clear in disclosing my interest in the product, and talk straight about it from the first. I've also helped thousands of people for free, even traveling over a thousand miles on a weekend to help at tech days multiple times.
Are you a friend of Grant Jensen? Just asking. Since you made a comment about vested interest, I think it's fair to ask. No offense intended. He's talked a fair bit about some of my products, and said things that are not accurate.
 

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I personally don't like the Thermobob due to the fact that it gets to be 120-130 degrees out in the open sun of Las Vegas and that can push a bikes limit on cooling. Therefore anything that slows down the cooling process has to go. I finally found a good combination of low opening temp fan switch and a new aluminum radiator to make it through again.
Personally, I don't think that you understand the Thermo-Bobs function.

It simply reduces engine warm-up time and helps stabilize normal engine temperatures in the most efficient range of 195-225 F when used with an oem pressure cap of about 15psi.

It does barely affect actual Maximum cooling by about a mere 2 degrees F, if I remember correctly. I will strongly urge You to read ALL of Watt-mans Thermo-Bob testing information to possibly tell me that I remembered in-correctly.

Maximum operating temperatures of an internal combustion engine are determined by many factors, but the addition of a cold-start radiator by-pass system really is NOT one of those factors.
 

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"It simply reduces engine warm-up time and helps stabilize normal engine temperatures in the most efficient range of 195-225 F when used with an oem pressure cap of about 15psi. "

I have a Tusk 1.8 (25 PSI) cap. Would this be a problem with TB2? Advice...
(now I've done it, publically asked a question on this topic, ouch!)

2017 KLR, '93 VMax, '08 FJR
 

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I have a Tusk 1.8 (25 PSI) cap. Would this be a problem with TB2? Advice...
I really don't have much 'Advice' about using that high of pressure rated cap on a KLR650.

But I do wish they had 'Painted' the scale differently.

I'd suggest,
RED Zone from 32-130F / 0-55C (or there abouts)
Yellow Zone from 130-180F / 55-72C
Green Zone from 180-250F / 72-120C
Yellow Zone from 250-270F / 120-137C
Red Zone from 270-400F / 137-200C

I wonder if 1.8 Bar / 25 PSI might be a little severe on coolant hoses, even at 250 F / 120C?
 

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I really don't have much 'Advice' about using that high of pressure rated cap on a KLR650.

But I do wish they had 'Painted' the scale differently.

I'd suggest,
RED Zone from 32-130F / 0-55C (or there abouts)
Yellow Zone from 130-180F / 55-72C
Green Zone from 180-250F / 72-120C
Yellow Zone from 250-270F / 120-137C
Red Zone from 270-400F / 137-200C

I wonder if 1.8 Bar / 25 PSI might be a little severe on coolant hoses, even at 250 F / 120C?
Wattman's overlay pretty much solves the issue.

Disclamer: I'm color blind so fancy colors on meters are no help to me!! Here is why: LINK
 

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Wow, you guys weren't very friendly during this chat. I guess some have vested interests in these products. It's just a comment, don't lose your mind. He's entitled to think and say what he wants. I personally don't like the Thermobob due to the fact that it gets to be 120-130 degrees out in the open sun of Las Vegas and that can push a bikes limit on cooling. Therefore anything that slows down the cooling process has to go. I finally found a good combination of low opening temp fan switch and a new aluminum radiator to make it through again.
The Thermobob keeps coolant around the cylinder at 190ºF, regardless of ambient air temperature. Weather its 20ºF of 90ºF, the thermostat is going to keep coolant temperature at 190ºF. Also its a little heartbreaking watching the arguing taking place here. All of Eagle Mikes products are top notch high quality parts. Im a diehard believer in his Thermobob AND also would like to try the MCP carb correction kit. Cant we all just get along....
 

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Cant we all just get along....
Without outrageous and totally impossible claims we can "get along" perfectly fine.

And I'll even encourage you to try the MCP carb re-jetting kit. And write a posting about it after you ride with it for say 500-1000miles. There are threads about it already on this forum, find them.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
The Thermobob keeps coolant around the cylinder at 190ºF, regardless of ambient air temperature. Weather its 20ºF of 90ºF, the thermostat is going to keep coolant temperature at 190ºF. Also its a little heartbreaking watching the arguing taking place here. All of Eagle Mikes products are top notch high quality parts. Im a diehard believer in his Thermobob AND also would like to try the MCP carb correction kit. Cant we all just get along....
I too prefer we all get along. :D
The ThermoBob is/was actually Wattman's idea. He been very involved in building and modifying engines for quite a while, and is a pretty bright guy. I made note of some of his accomplishments and qualifications a couple of other places in this thread and the other one about the bypass. He tested his prototype ThermoBob for a couple of years, then talked to me about going into production. We collaborated on a few details, and went for it. I make the aluminum parts in the kits. I'm very glad you like it!
Just a couple of notes on the get along thing. I don't know how to explain except to say that when a guy like MCP starts saying stuff that's not true about my products, making comparisons that aren't valid, I don't think that's acceptable. I would hope that people are smart enough to see through the BS, but they shouldn't even have to. It's bad enough that copies are coming from China and other places.
Some of his various claims about the ThermoBob make no sense. He's erased many of his posts after I asked to see his test data, and I offered a link to WattMan's data. He even calls it a thermostat bypass, which it's clearly not. If you could see every post he's made about the carb kits, or the ThermoBob, I think you'd understand my position. After bad mouthing the T-Bob, he announces he's going to make one.
I know that nuance can be lost on this medium, so I'll say I'm making this post with a smile on my face. I hope you can read this in the intended tone. It's a partial response to some of the claims made at various times by MCP.
I will allege;
A carb kit will not help materially improve oil usage on the klr650.
A carb kit will not materially affect engine vibration on the KLR650, unless it's way off and causes detonation. If it's a bit rich, there will be a subtle change, but most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I'm not referring to smoothness of response. :D I'm talking about engine vibration.
A carb kit will not affect engine ignition timing, as it's a fixed curve on the gen1 and gen2. There is no feedback or control loop for mixture, f/a ratio in the exhaust, air and/or coolant temperature, manifold vacuum, or throttle opening as there should be in the newer fuel injected KLR650.
MCP has made claims counter to what I allege above.
Wishing you many happy miles on your klr!
 

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Oh yes you are right the thermo bob is from Watt Man my mistake. I do love my KLX needle kit as it has made my KLR run noticeably better than it did with the stock needle and jets. Only thing is my MPG really took a hit because it runs a lot richer so that's the only reason for my interest in the MCP kit. But perhaps the KLR was always meant to run a little on the richer side.
 

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The recent thread about this turned into a mess, due to some really bad info and a guy setting up to sell his version of a copy of the TB2.

Bill Watson aka Wattman came up with the idea a long time ago, IIRC he started the process about 2005. He made the original prototype in his home shop, and tested it for quite a while. I think we had the first production version of the original ThermoBob in late 2008. Some in the past have asked about his qualifications, he is a PE and worked as a design engineer for a turbine/jet engine company. He also personally built a 1966 Mustang fastback that made the cover of "Hot Rod" magazine several years ago. He built his own intercooler and intake manifold, and set up the fuel injection.

The ThermoBob is designed to stabilize engine temperatures as close to optimum as possible. This includes warming the engine coolant more quickly than stock, then stabilizing it. The original stock setup allows good sized thermal swings, worse on the Gen2 due to the changes in radiator design. The Gen2 radiator has more surface area, and also holds a little less coolant. If you have a stock Gen2, you likely noticed how the temperature gauge needle swing down when you accelerate from a stop. This also warms the oil a little more quickly. This is a good thing. The ThermoBob thermostat functions at a higher temperature than the stop setup. This doesn't mean the engine will over heat. All the modern cars that I know of also run anywhere 190 to 210. As far as running a lower temperature thermostat, sometimes people running cars want to run a cooler thermostat to affect the intake temperature. I personally don't see a benefit for running the stock value in the KLR. I used to think that colder is better. As I gained more knowledge, I learned that there are optimum temperatures, and colder isn't always better.

At this time, WattMan has over 180K miles on his KLR650. It still has the original bore, rings, piston, cam chain and balancer chains. A drive dog on third gear broke at 142K miles, stopping shifting. It could have been worse, and caused more damage. He removed the top end, split the cases, and replaced third gear with one from my stash. I was able to use a dial bore gauge to measure the variation of the bore. The total variation was .0011 - just over one-thousandth of an inch. At 142,000 miles! He wanted to put it back together with the original parts, to see how long he could go before rebuild. Today IIRC he has over 185K miles on the original parts: piston, bore, rings.

I've measured many cylinders over the years. Those engines running a ThermoBob consistently gauge rounder than those without. I do machine the aluminum parts for Wattman. It's your choice whether or not to use one. After seeing Bill's results, and measuring cylinders, I personally think it's a good thing. Cars have had these since the 1950's. It's even more important for an EFI engine. The EFI systems have sensors for coolant temperatures (all of them I've seen these days) as well as ambient temperature, so they can optimize fueling. Warming up more quickly and stabilizing temperatures will minimize wear and also improve fuel economy.

There is a reason for the various design features of each variation of the ThermoBob. When people copy stuff, they often don't understand why things are done a certain way.
Here is a link to test data: ThermoBob test results KLR650

Wish you health and a happy KLR life. :)x
You bring up a great point regarding EFI and stable coolant temps which also prevent swings in air fuel mixtures and poor response that might result from those wild temp swings in an KLR. I'm wondering if Kawasaki has incorporated their own thermobob in the new EFI KLR. Honestly, I can't see why they didn't do it with the Gen II's from the start. I put one on mine 300 miles after buying my 2018 new. Fantastic improvement in my opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Oh yes you are right the thermo bob is from Watt Man my mistake. I do love my KLX needle kit as it has made my KLR run noticeably better than it did with the stock needle and jets. Only thing is my MPG really took a hit because it runs a lot richer so that's the only reason for my interest in the MCP kit. But perhaps the KLR was always meant to run a little on the richer side.
You can always play with the settings a bit. Either remove one of the shims if you have any under the clip, or raise the clip one groove and maybe add a shim under the clip, or try a smaller main. I've had guys tell me they don't want to go to a smaller main jet, when that is what is needed with the KLX for their bike. The KLX needle does flow more fuel than the stock klr needle.. KLR's can vary as much as one main jet size in what they need. That's one advantage the KLX has over the mcp kit - the needle can be adjusted up and down, not just changing the main jet. A local guy bought an MCP kit and took a 5 mg hit compared to his klx, using the setting provided by MCP. Just play with it a bit. If one does stuff like open the arirbox, you need more fuel than a stock bike, so all mod's have to be considered when making changes.
Go for it if you want to give it a try. It might work right away, or you might have to play with settings to get it optimized, same as a KLX setup. Good luck!
 

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Only thing is my MPG really took a hit because it runs a lot richer so that's the only reason for my interest in the MCP kit.
I'll ask how much or how little you modified your air filter box?

If you don't allow more air IN there is not much sense in adding much more fuel to the engine. The KLX650R air box breathes thru about a 5 x 6 inch hole.
 

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I'll ask how much or how little you modified your air filter box?

If you don't allow more air IN there is not much sense in adding much more fuel to the engine. The KLX650R air box breathes thru about a 5 x 6 inch hole.
I haven't modified it at all. I have no desire for more power or noise from the KLR. I just want it to run as efficient as possible. I do have an FMF header with a Lexx exhaust but I have the Trail Saver tip installed which in my opinion retstricts the outflow of exhaust just as much as the OEM pipe.
 

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With no extra air flow to match the extra fuel of the KLX needle, that will explain much of your loss of MPG.
As an absolute bare minimum, you should remove the rubber air box snorkel at the LH rear.

If we are wrong, you can spray the snorkel with silicone & stuff it back it.
 
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I haven't modified it at all. I have no desire for more power or noise from the KLR. I just want it to run as efficient as possible. I do have an FMF header with a Lexx exhaust but I have the Trail Saver tip installed which in my opinion retstricts the outflow of exhaust just as much as the OEM pipe.
The reliable way you are going to get a correctly set up carburetor is to invest in and take the time to learn how to use and air/fuel (A/F) meter. An Innovate LM-2 as a starting point comes to mind.

The only other strategy is to make one change at a time to the air/fuel system and evaluate the results for yourself.
 

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With no extra air flow to match the extra fuel of the KLX needle, that will explain much of your loss of MPG.
As an absolute bare minimum, you should remove the rubber air box snorkel at the LH rear.

If we are wrong, you can spray the snorkel with silicone & stuff it back it.
I Agree with that, but the only reason why I didn't pull the snorkel was because I didn't feel like I was opening up the exhaust enough to compensate for what would be an increase of air through the airbox. My theory was that an engine can only pump out as much air as its pulling in. I will definitely give that a try before I go and buy the MCP Kit.
 

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I Agree with that, but the only reason why I didn't pull the snorkel was because I didn't feel like I was opening up the exhaust enough to compensate for what would be an increase of air through the airbox. My theory was that an engine can only pump out as much air as its pulling in. I will definitely give that a try before I go and buy the MCP Kit.

Sounds logical but in practical terms the airbox is a much larger restriction than the exhaust - which is why pulling the snorkle should be done even with the stock silencer. to put it another way, removing the restriction in the intake does allow the engine to pump as much air out as it's pulling in because the exhaust restriction isn't a factor at stock or near stock power levels.


Dave
 
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