Kawasaki KLR Forum banner

1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,481 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
As a retired tech I still see huge numbers of rounded fasteners and still have friends and shops send some nasty ones for removal. I'm a masochist. :crazy

A couple of tricks which may help someone in dealing with rounded out Phillips heads, or better for about to be rounded:

1) Dip the tip of the screwdriver into some valve grinding compound or one of the sure grip type products which are valve grinding compound in a smaller bottle for more money. If you don't have a tin of this stuff, please put it on your list as it saves huge amounts of trouble. Also works well on rounded or about to be, bleeder screws, Allen head screws, hex bolts.

2) Use a gasket hammer (tiny one) to rivet the displaced, rounded socket area of the screw head. When the Phillips drive area rounded out, the metal was displaced to smack the top of the head face to displace steel back into the drive area. Then take a screwdriver bit and use the same tiny hammer to drive the bit into the screw to form a new, perfectly fitting drive socket. Make certain to keep the screwdriver axial to the screw and that usually does it. Nice part is that the screw can be reused in not critical areas such as the sheet metal covers on the little Honda generator in the photos.

3) Here's another I use often: use a very small and sharp chisel with the tiny hammer to make a groove in the side of the screw head. Chisel in radially to get a good notch, then grab a dull chisel of the same size, angle it and use the tiny hammer and chisel to rotate the screw. Once it starts to move, one can usually use a screwdriver or trick #2.

HIH

https://www.dropbox.com/s/li8r7pzvwst46wb/Damaged Phillips.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mlx7zmg7psa5mk8/Damaged Phillips2.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4n85dha0i9nqma5/Damaged Phillips3.jpg
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,469 Posts
Good tips. We used to deal with a lot of screws and always kept an oil sample bottle full of Comet. Stick the tip of the screwdriver in your mouth, dip the tip of it in the Comet then engage the screw, spit Comet residue out of your mouth about every 5th screw or so. I recall my bowels being more regular back then......

So, if you don't have any valve grinding compound around but do have some Comet it will do in a pinch, but you have to get the tip of the screwdriver wet first so the Comet will stick to it.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
3,564 Posts
Good tips. I'll have to try those before I reach for this:

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,481 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
planalp, you always type faster than I can read so having trouble keeping up. So, it's screwdriver into mouth, then into Comet, right? :Tongue2:

Good back up, hadn't thought of using any of the scouring powders so will have to check as don't always have lapping compound. Is Comet a soft material such as limestone? Never thought about checking that but we used to put some Bon Ami down the carb on engines which had been babied after a ring job. Some times the abrasive seemed to allow the rings to seat. As it would have to come apart otherwise, it seemed a worth while attempt.

Diatomateous earth (floor dry and such) might work also, if Comet is hard enough.

I'd think Comet tastes better than grease based lapping compound although I suppose one could mix some fine carborundum powder with a good extra virgin olive oil? :)

Wasn't it here some years ago that someone posted to an oil thread, "What's the deal with extra virgin olive oil." Post came back, quick as a flash, "The more virgin the oil, the uglier the olive. " Still the best line ever. :Happy:





Good tips. We used to deal with a lot of screws and always kept an oil sample bottle full of Comet. Stick the tip of the screwdriver in your mouth, dip the tip of it in the Comet then engage the screw, spit Comet residue out of your mouth about every 5th screw or so. I recall my bowels being more regular back then......

So, if you don't have any valve grinding compound around but do have some Comet it will do in a pinch, but you have to get the tip of the screwdriver wet first so the Comet will stick to it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,469 Posts
Indeed. Mouth, then Comet. I use the name "Comet" as a general reference to all scouring powders. I always preferred the name-brand green-tinted Comet: it consistently presented a delicate dance between the subtle textures of ground limestone and feldspar with a light urinal cake flavor.

My mantra: "If you won't stick your tools in your mouth, then you're not keeping them clean enough."

Actually, if you really don't have anything around or are on the roadside and want to do your best to make sure you don't strip a screw head, you can usually just get the screwdriver wet then stick the tip of it in some dirt somewhere. Dirt is generally pretty gritty.
 

·
Lifetime Member
Joined
·
2,481 Posts
Way way (way) back when my buddy and I were kids just starting out on fixing (breaking really) our old Honda minis we used to strip out a lot of those little Philips screws. Never knew these tricks, they would have really come in handy!

We usually tried an impact driver (prestripped head) first. If that didn't work we would cut a slot in the head of the screw with a hacksaw blade (pre dremel days) and then remove the fastener with a slotted screwdriver. Lol, needless to say, our side covers were pretty interesting looking!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,481 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
So you're saying that dirt's pretty gritty?
But, does that mean that pretty dirt's more gritty?
Or country dirt's more gritty than that in the city?

We had a cottage in an area in which there was a lot of obsidian in the gravel. That sand really ate things!

"Urinal cake flavor!" You win, I laughed first and am still cracking up. Bet you learned to talk like that in one of the finest finishing schools? :)



Indeed. Mouth, then Comet. I use the name "Comet" as a general reference to all scouring powders. I always preferred the name-brand green-tinted Comet: it consistently presented a delicate dance between the subtle textures of ground limestone and feldspar with a light urinal cake flavor.

My mantra: "If you won't stick your tools in your mouth, then you're not keeping them clean enough."

Actually, if you really don't have anything around or are on the roadside and want to do your best to make sure you don't strip a screw head, you can usually just get the screwdriver wet then stick the tip of it in some dirt somewhere. Dirt is generally pretty gritty.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,469 Posts
Back in my Chrysler transmission mechanic days, I had once rounded off a small bolt head. I can't remember what size it was, but the head was about the size of a pencil eraser.

The guy working next to me walked over with a big air chisel in his hand, placed the corner of the large bit against the side of the tiny bolt head and "Braaap," just like that it was loose. I was quite impressed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
Robertson screws, they should have won the battle way back when....damned government!
if it wasn't a Canadian invention, maybe they would.....

while we're on that topic of silly government refusals to move forward, maybe someone should tell them about the metric system, it's catching on :thumb:
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
8,237 Posts
Government? Please explain; yours or ours?

My understanding has been that it was a simple financial decision.

"When testing the Roberson (sic) screw for their assembly line, Ford found that they could save upwards of 2 hours of assembly time per vehicle. Ford, wanting to protect his assembly advantage, asked for a licensing agreement from Robertson so that he might manufacture and control the distribution of the screws.

Robertson had expanded, by this time, into Europe. But his fortunes turned bad when the war (WW1) struck and his European partners turned out to be less than honourable.

However he was riding the euphoria of a blossoming product and despite his losses in Europe, he felt that giving a license to Ford would not be in his best interest.

Shortly thereafter a guy by the name of Phillips had no such reservation over licensing to Ford and, as they say, that was that!"


And, lest one think that this is simply revisionist history by us backward Merkuns, consider the source: http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/Ontario/robertson_screws.htm
 

·
Threadjacker
Joined
·
6,768 Posts
Government? Please explain; yours or ours?

My understanding has been that it was a simple financial decision.

"When testing the Roberson (sic) screw for their assembly line, Ford found that they could save upwards of 2 hours of assembly time per vehicle. Ford, wanting to protect his assembly advantage, asked for a licensing agreement from Robertson so that he might manufacture and control the distribution of the screws.

Robertson had expanded, by this time, into Europe. But his fortunes turned bad when the war (WW1) struck and his European partners turned out to be less than honourable.

However he was riding the euphoria of a blossoming product and despite his losses in Europe, he felt that giving a license to Ford would not be in his best interest.

Shortly thereafter a guy by the name of Phillips had no such reservation over licensing to Ford and, as they say, that was that!"


And, lest one think that this is simply revisionist history by us backward Merkuns, consider the source: http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/Ontario/robertson_screws.htm
That was super interesting. Thanks, Tom. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
97 Posts
A program I watched several years ago suggested there was a gentle nudging by the US government towards Ford with regards to selecting a fastner type.
Revisionist history...perhaps, perhaps not.
Either way I prefer Robertson over Phillips any day of the week.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
8,237 Posts
Here's a simple thought exercize.

It's the mid 1920s in America. You're going to make a product that uses about 700 each of one component. You plan to make about 4 million of your product, so you're going to need on the order of 2.8 billion of these components.

If the supply chain of these components gets interrupted because the sole-source manufacturer cannot produce enough then your production is going to grind to a halt.

Would you take that risk or would you insist on being in control of that component? Indeed, wouldn't you insist on being in control of every critical component in your product? Ford insisted on that level of control and built over four million Model A, the car that used 700 Robertson screws during the test.

Henry Ford profited greatly from the US Government and its contracts, but I don't think he was one to let the Government tell him what to do on his production line, at least not at the screw level.

Tom
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,540 Posts
We usually tried an impact driver (prestripped head) first. If that didn't work we would cut a slot in the head of the screw with a hacksaw blade (pre dremel days) and then remove the fastener with a slotted screwdriver.
Continuing story of my life. :)

Anyone have an image of a Robertson screw head? EDIT: Never mind; here's all one always wanted to know about screw heads, but remained afraid to ask:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

I'll see if I can find the JIS picture.

Here 'tis:



Impact driver and JIS bits:

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
97 Posts
Sorry!

I am seriously regretting ever mentioning those "other" screws. :surrender:
I'll stay quiet and stay away from the keyboard now
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
8,237 Posts
Aw c'mon, Canamatt. This is how we used to have fun here - talking about weird shit.

I'll finish up by saying that I happen to like the Robertson screw. I believe that it is far simpler and more effective than Phillips, JIS, or any of the other cruciform heads. It is capable of high torque, the screw can be put on the bit and driven with one hand, the bits last a long time, and it cams out nicely. It's far superior to the crappy American square drive and it has an interesting history.

As a side note, the Tupperware on my RT is held in place with 32 Torx fasteners. The whole damn bike is held together with Torx fasteners, except for the transmission drain bolt. This German engineering is why my forefathers lost the war. Twice. ;^)

Cheers,

Tom
 

·
Lifetime Member
Joined
·
2,481 Posts
I wish I had some of those JIS screwdrivers, would have saved me a lot of grief in the olden days! Thankfully the bikes these day's don't seem to have nearly as many Phillips fasteners as they used to. Our old 70's and 50's looked like Frankenstein's creations after we were done wrenching on 'em :).
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,540 Posts
Speaking of tools, weird . . . anyone remember "Ford" wrenches? We've discussed Ford's penchant for Robertson screws, but . . . as I remember them, Ford wrenches were adjustable wrenches, unlike "Crescent" wrenches in design, with L-shaped fixed forgings or castings and a worm gear to set the jaw space . . .
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
Top