[Voyager]

Whichever way the "V" is supposed to point . . . the FRONT tire Vees point one way, and the REAR tire Vees point in the opposite direction.

The Vee orientation favors traction in STOPPING with the front tire, and in ACCELERATING with the rear tire.

Some tires have helpful little direction-of-rotation arrows on the sidewalls, assisting the rider in correct Vee orientation when mounting tires.

I HAVE SPOKEN!

The directional arrows aren’t just for tread orientation. Not that a KLR has either enough acceleration or braking force to matter much in regards to the tire tread splice direction. :grin2:

Tires Directional Arrows Explained By Avon Tyres at Cyril Huze Post ? Custom Motorcycle News

 

[Voyager]

Voyage, You need to hold the front tires above your head and look at the pattern from the worms eye view. Which way does the tread V scoop the water, sand, gravel into the center line when on the brakes, verses scoot the water, sand & gravel out towards the sides? The Metzeler Laser street tires were the 1st to take advantage of this /\ pattern for wet weather perfomance.

The Dunlop D606 front knobby is one of the worst offenders I have ever had the displeasure of sampling on a gravel road with the front tire mounted your way. (Ok at 50 mph, totally unridable by 60 mph, on a Gen 2 KLR650.)
The factory arrow points your way and many people have been told forever to not argue with the factories. But that arrow is part of the reason why many riders match the Pirelli MT-21 front tire with the D606 rear, instead of simply reversing the front D606.

Since my tires are mounted, it is a little tricky to hold the bike above my head. I find it easier to just look at the top and flip the pattern mentally or look at the front and do the same.

I am running the stock tires since I have less than 300 miles on my KLR, but I will be watching here for what people have had good experience with as I approach tire replacement time.

 

[Hagan]

Well I ended up going with Dunlop d606's front and rear. I ordered them a couple days ago. We will see how they handle once I wear the original tires out.

 

[Voyager]

Well I ended up going with Dunlop d606's front and rear. I ordered them a couple days ago. We wi see how they handle once I wear the original tires out. Shouldn't be much longer

Good time to practice braking. :grin2:

 

[Damocles]

The directional arrows aren’t just for tread orientation. Not that a KLR has either enough acceleration or braking force to matter much in regards to the tire tread splice direction. :grin2:

Tires Directional Arrows Explained By Avon Tyres at Cyril Huze Post ? Custom Motorcycle News

Interesting info about "tread splice" from the link, Voyager!

Given that tires, oriented in compliance with direction-of-rotation arrows, so that front tire braking minimizes front tread splice stress, and that rear tire acceleration minimizes rear tread splice stress . . . why are the Vee patterns opposite, front and rear?

While tread splice stress may be minimal, braking and accelerating, with a KLR650, I think the tread Vee orientation plays a considerable role in budgeting traction for braking and for acceleration, especially off-road. Yet, I think maybe I've seen a tread pattern or two with Vees oriented in the same direction, both fore and aft. Most I've seen reverse Vee orientation, front to rear.

Regardless, thanks again for sharing the information on tread splice consideration in tire orientation.

 

[pdwestman]

Voyager, May I suggest that you take a look at the directional arrows on the side walls of the Avon TrailRider and TrekRider dual-sport tires and look at the tread vee directions. I have Not seen either of these sets in-person, but I've got a pretty good idea as to which way Avon marked them for rotation and which way I would mount them even if there were No Arrows.
,/\, down on the Front tire, as viewed from the front of the bike. ,/\, down on the Rear tire, as viewed from the Back of the bike.


I've read about tire directional arrows since the mid-1970's. And I have drawn these conclusions.

Most true Off-Road tires are uni-directional. So they can be reversed by those of us on shorter budgets, twice if desired.

Most Automotive tires are uni-directional, got to be, to be used left or right / front or rear / rear wheel drive or front wheel drive.

Truely high-end asphalt sport or racing tires may have an issue with tread splice direction. (NOTE, neither they nor I suggested carcass splice!)

But I will suggest that any tire that one may mount on a sub-50 horsepower KLR650 will not sustain any carcass or tread separation issues even if one chooses to mount the tread pattern in the Reverse Direction of the tire companies arrow.

 

[Voyager]

Interesting info about "tread splice" from the link, Voyager!

Given that tires, oriented in compliance with direction-of-rotation arrows, so that front tire braking minimizes front tread splice stress, and that rear tire acceleration minimizes rear tread splice stress . . . why are the Vee patterns opposite, front and rear?

While tread splice stress may be minimal, braking and accelerating, with a KLR650, I think the tread Vee orientation plays a considerable role in budgeting traction for braking and for acceleration, especially off-road. Yet, I think maybe I've seen a tread pattern or two with Vees oriented in the same direction, both fore and aft. Most I've seen reverse Vee orientation, front to rear.

Regardless, thanks again for sharing the information on tread splice consideration in tire orientation.

The pattern is opposite because the force on the tires is opposite. In the front, the tire is pushing forward on the road, or alternatively, the road is pushing rearward on the tire to rotate it since the front tire is not driven. And when braking, the force is much higher than that needed to simply keep the tire turning. On the rear, the tire is pushing rearward on the road, or alternatively, the road is pushing forward on the tire, particularly under high acceleration. Since the braking force of a rear tire is minimal, the main force is acceleration force so the tread is optimized for that.

 

[Voyager]

Voyager, May I suggest that you take a look at the directional arrows on the side walls of the Avon TrailRider and TrekRider dual-sport tires and look at the tread vee directions. I have Not seen either of these sets in-person, but I've got a pretty good idea as to which way Avon marked them for rotation and which way I would mount them even if there were No Arrows.
,/\, down on the Front tire, as viewed from the front of the bike. ,/\, down on the Rear tire, as viewed from the Back of the bike.


I've read about tire directional arrows since the mid-1970's. And I have drawn these conclusions.

Most true Off-Road tires are uni-directional. So they can be reversed by those of us on shorter budgets, twice if desired.

Most Automotive tires are uni-directional, got to be, to be used left or right / front or rear / rear wheel drive or front wheel drive.

Truely high-end asphalt sport or racing tires may have an issue with tread splice direction. (NOTE, neither they nor I suggested carcass splice!)

But I will suggest that any tire that one may mount on a sub-50 horsepower KLR650 will not sustain any carcass or tread separation issues even if one chooses to mount the tread pattern in the Reverse Direction of the tire companies arrow.

Yes, most off-road tires will work fine either direction, however, if there are directional arrows, I follow them as the manufacturer generally has good reason for specifying a direction if they do so.

Most street tires are directional as you want the front to displace water in the rain. And thus you want the point of the V facing downward on the front so that the point hits the road first and then the V widens as the tire rotates forward to guide the water to the side of the tire. Putting a front directional tire on backwards can greatly increase the chances of hydroplaning in heavy rain.

The tread on street tires isn’t for traction, it is for water management. The best tread for traction on dry pavement is a slick. :smile2:

Obviously, most KLRs don’t run street tread so this isn’t a consideration. And off-road, the tread serves an entirely different purpose.

 

[Underway93]

Dirt / trail riding is different than pavement. ‘Sliding contact’ not ‘static contact’ is squirreley by nature. Once you gain muscle memory and experience you’ll learn to like it! Tire change will improve it, but it’s kind of the nature of the beast.

Mark-

 

[Surfersami]

I live a mile back on a gravel road. I have had street tires, Shinko 244s, and Shinko 705s they all squirrel around on the gravel. I have learned to let the bike find its way, don't over tighten your grip and use the throttle to steer a little now and then.
When the tail comes out a little the front tire is more straight up and down so it doesn't tend to slip as much. Only problem is when a neighbor sees me doing that and doesn't understand why. The KLR is top heavy, and feels like the tires want to slide out a lot in the gravel. I can still run 35+ in the tightest turns on my road but it still feels squirrely.

 

[Damocles]

I previously posted, "The Vee orientation favors traction in STOPPING with the front tire, and in ACCELERATING with the rear tire."

Your post quoted below, I think, corroborates the concept I tried to convey, but . . . your words are much more eloquent, and frame relevant issues more thoroughly, than mine!

The pattern is opposite because the force on the tires is opposite. In the front, the tire is pushing forward on the road, or alternatively, the road is pushing rearward on the tire to rotate it since the front tire is not driven. And when braking, the force is much higher than that needed to simply keep the tire turning. On the rear, the tire is pushing rearward on the road, or alternatively, the road is pushing forward on the tire, particularly under high acceleration. Since the braking force of a rear tire is minimal, the main force is acceleration force so the tread is optimized for that.

 

[pdwestman]

The pattern is opposite because the force on the tires is opposite. In the front, the tire is pushing forward on the road, or alternatively, the road is pushing rearward on the tire to rotate it since the front tire is not driven. And when braking, the force is much higher than that needed to simply keep the tire turning. On the rear, the tire is pushing rearward on the road, or alternatively, the road is pushing forward on the tire, particularly under high acceleration. Since the braking force of a rear tire is minimal, the main force is acceleration force so the tread is optimized for that.

In my honest opinion Voyager, you stated it Correctly here.

Most street tires are directional as you want the front to displace water in the rain. And thus you want the point of the V facing downward on the front so that the point hits the road first and then the V widens as the tire rotates forward to guide the water to the side of the tire. Putting a front directional tire on backwards can greatly increase the chances of hydroplaning in heavy rain.

And then turned right around and got the Front Tire Tread or Grooves Backwards Again, with this statement IMHO.

The front tire tread or groove pattern needs to act like an angled squeegee, NOT a 'scoop shovel', because it is Always being 'pushed'>>>>>>>>>>>>>(forward imprint on the ground). The point of the vee needs to be the last portion of the vee to contact the surface, to act as a squeegee.

Never 'driving' like a rear tire normally does<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(forward imprint on the ground).

 

[Voyager]

In my honest opinion Voyager, you stated it Correctly here.


And then turned right around and got the Front Tire Tread or Grooves Backwards Again, with this statement IMHO.

The front tire tread or groove pattern needs to act like an angled squeegee, NOT a 'scoop shovel', because it is Always being 'pushed'>>>>>>>>>>>>>(forward imprint on the ground). The point of the vee needs to be the last portion of the vee to contact the surface, to act as a squeegee.

Never 'driving' like a rear tire normally does<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(forward imprint on the ground).

I was correct both times. It depends on the road surface and conditions which is why it is best to follow the manufacturers directional arrows.

On dry pavement, the tread pattern is irrelevant as, as I stated earlier, a slick is the best design for traction.

On wet pavement, which is the design target for most street tires, the V should be oriented so that the point contacts the road first and displaces water to the front and sides as the tire rolls forward. The accelerate rear/brake front issue matters not as again this simply isn’t critical on even wet pavement.

On hard packed gravel or clay, I suspect the differences are also minor as the traction can be close to that of pavement, but if wet, I would still lean towards having the same V orientation as on wet pavement.

On loose gravel or dirt, then I think the acceleration rear/brake front matters and having the front V reversed (open part of V contacting the road first on the front tire) makes some sense.

This also may apply in sand and snow, although I am less certain as sometimes it better to displace loose materials rather than pull them under the tire.

It is a little like ABS. ABS works great on most surfaces, but can fail miserably in deep snow and sand where the fastest stops occur with the wheels locked and the snow or sand “damming” up in front of the tires. Sliding the tires on pavement increases stopped distance, but on very loose surfaces sliding the tires is actually beneficial.

Make sense?

 

[pdwestman]

I was correct both times. It depends on the road surface and conditions which is why it is best to follow the manufacturers directional arrows.

On dry pavement, the tread pattern is irrelevant as, as I stated earlier, a slick is the best design for traction.

On wet pavement, which is the design target for most street tires, the V should be oriented so that the point contacts the road first and displaces water to the front and sides as the tire rolls forward. The accelerate rear/brake front issue matters not as again this simply isn’t critical on even wet pavement.

On hard packed gravel or clay, I suspect the differences are also minor as the traction can be close to that of pavement, but if wet, I would still lean towards having the same V orientation as on wet pavement.

On loose gravel or dirt, then I think the acceleration rear/brake front matters and having the front V reversed (open part of V contacting the road first on the front tire) makes some sense.

This also may apply in sand and snow, although I am less certain as sometimes it better to displace loose materials rather than pull them under the tire.

It is a little like ABS. ABS works great on most surfaces, but can fail miserably in deep snow and sand where the fastest stops occur with the wheels locked and the snow or sand “damming” up in front of the tires. Sliding the tires on pavement increases stopped distance, but on very loose surfaces sliding the tires is actually beneficial.

Make sense?

#1, Wrong.
#2, Wrong.
#3, Wrong.
#4, Wrong.
#5, Correct.
#6, Correct.
#7, Un-decided
#8, No..

 

[Damocles]

Can we agree, Vees are oriented opposite, front to back?

If one could view the tracks made on the ground:

FRONT >>>>>>>>>>>> (BIKE) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< REAR

(Imagine the bike is traveling from right toward the left of your screen.)

Seems to me, the imprint representation shown above is consonant with most tire manufacturers' direction-of-rotation recommendations.

Then again, I could be horribly, horribly in error (often the case).

Corrections and clarifications, as always, welcomed!

 

[JStocks]

I bought an '08 last year and sold my '05. The first time I rode the Gen II in the dirt I hit a mildly loose patch and the front nearly washed out from under me-startling to say the least. But now that I have a lot of miles on both models I'm finding that the '08 is just that way on dirt, I have adjusted but the '05 was a lot better off road. I've read about others noticing it too.

 

[Pendragon]

I ride an '09 KLR650...recently did the COBDR on it including Weston and Cinnamon pass...she was rock solid! She is not stock though...

I have older T63's on it and I did the suspension - Top Gun heavy spring in the back and progressive springs in the front with heavier oil - Do the suspension and it's a whole other bike...a very dirt friendly one (for what it is). Also did the lowering brackets for the pegs and raised the bars...tusk handguards and she was good to go.
Also - no heavy racks on the back - I used soft cheap saddlebags and they worked great for carrying tools, tube, food, etc.

I weigh 215 and am 5'8"....I just researched the forums for people my approx size and weight that were happy with their suspension mods (and picked the cheapest ones from that)....worked for me. I am super happy with my klr after it took me over Cinnamon Pass...it felt good to me on the rocks and in the gravel.

My biggest dilemma now is deciding which tires to replace the T63's with...maybe the mitas...maybe the mt21's

 

[Hagan]

I ride an '09 KLR650...recently did the COBDR on it including Weston and Cinnamon pass...she was rock solid! She is not stock though...

I have older T63's on it and I did the suspension - Top Gun heavy spring in the back and progressive springs in the front with heavier oil - Do the suspension and it's a whole other bike...a very dirt friendly one (for what it is). Also did the lowering brackets for the pegs and raised the bars...tusk handguards and she was good to go.
Also - no heavy racks on the back - I used soft cheap saddlebags and they worked great for carrying tools, tube, food, etc.

I weigh 215 and am 5'8"....I just researched the forums for people my approx size and weight that were happy with their suspension mods (and picked the cheapest ones from that)....worked for me. I am super happy with my klr after it took me over Cinnamon Pass...it felt good to me on the rocks and in the gravel.

My biggest dilemma now is deciding which tires to replace the T63's with...maybe the mitas...maybe the mt21's

Thanks! I just did part of the OBDR and that's when I decided that my KLR was squirrelly.

I have new tires waiting to go on (Dunlop D606) and I hope that changes how it feels.

The Suspension on mine should be a lot better than yours was stock because of the stiffer springs Kawi used in 2014+. It feels like it could still use some suspension work though.

 

[pdwestman]

Can we agree, Vees are oriented opposite, front to back?

If one could view the tracks made on the ground:

FRONT >>>>>>>>>>>> (BIKE) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< REAR

(Imagine the bike is traveling from right toward the left of your screen.)

Seems to me, the imprint representation shown above is consonant with most tire manufacturers' direction-of-rotation recommendations.

Then again, I could be horribly, horribly in error (often the case).

Corrections and clarifications, as always, welcomed!

Damocles, if your comment was to me, my direction of travel was from the Left to Right of the screen.
I will suggest that in your diagram the front tire will act as a "scoop shovel" like a Dunlop D606 Front tire running standard arrow rotation and will get very squirrelly at 60 mph+ on gravel roads. And will pack with 'stickey mud'.

Your rear tire diagram (traveling left) will work great in sand, but will instantly pack-up with 'stickey mud' because it can't clean-out by squeezing the mud to the sides.




[The front tire tread or groove pattern needs to act like an angled squeegee, NOT a 'scoop shovel', because it is Always being 'pushed'>>>>>>>>>>>>>(forward imprint on the ground)>. The point of the vee needs to be the last portion of the vee to contact the surface, to act as a squeegee.

Never 'driving' like a rear tire normally does<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(forward imprint on the ground)<.]
Maybe I should have said, "imprint on the ground, this end forward"?

 

[Damocles]

Damocles, if your comment was to me, my direction of travel was from the Left to Right of the screen.

Maybe I, over-thought this, but . . . the ground imprints would be the same, left-to-right or right-to-left, as long as the bike is ine the center!

Not "directed" toward anyone. Just . . . any agreement on . . .

Bike pointed toward left of screen.

Ground imprint of FRONT tire: >>>>>>>>>>>> (BIKE HERE) Ground imprint of REAR tire: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

(As noted, as long as the bike is between the two sets of Vees, the orientation of the Vees will be the SAME regardless of the direction the bike is pointed.)

Any agreement on typical manufacturer Vee orientation as expressed?

Again, maybe the tire manufacturers don't know what they're talking about, or, they're just MESSING with us by embossing direction-of-rotation arrows on tire sidewalls, KNOWING the guidance is in error.