[CamoColton]

 

[CamoColton]

It is clear at this point I have made a mistake, I promise that won't happen again.

Best wishes

Promise? For real?

 

[BKcaliKLR]

What type of oil is in your bike doesn’t matter if you don’t ride said bike! Where are the rad pics @Biggs3118 of your front tires in the sand with a badass road in front… I miss em:/ I was suggested Actevo 20/50 semi synthetic and have had no problems this far let me know how bad I am fudging anything up as I am a “oil newb”.

 

[Gunnar88]

A LOT of pro-mod guys use Amsoil stuff. Lots of NASCAR as well. Not every sticker on the car is what's used on the car. I would bet that most don't use the oil the sticker says. The fact is for most pro's what they use is kept a secret. Some use blended and some use all synthetic. For my KLR I used Kawi for a while (awful), then Bell-Ray (little better) and now Amsoil which blows them out of the water in terms of shifting. The fork oil I used is pretty nice as well. Last time I took the bike apart I also flushed the water and put Amsoil in. So far it's impressive.

Show me a BSL analysis in the thread that I linked. THAT would be the FIRST AMSOIL Report that I've seen!

Go to Bob is the Oil Guy forum and you will see all the Amsoil reports you want.

 

[pdwestman]

Go to Bob is the Oil Guy forum and you will see all the Amsoil reports you want.

Are any of those Amsoil reports from KLR650 engines with 3000-5000 miles of usage on their oils?
If so link a couple to my thread in 'KLR & Other Motorcycles' sub-forum.

Samples from other engines won't give an easily relatable comparison.

 

[DPelletier]

The point of highest pressure and wear in most engines is the cam-follower interface. Especially the older engine designs where the cam wipes across a tappet or follower. Our KLRs fit that description. Of the many KLR engine cams I’ve seen, i can’t recall seeing one where the cam was worn down significantly, even in those that suffered oil starvation to the cam bearings. Maybe Paul has. But that tells me that the cam interface on KLRs is greatly over designed for the KLR 4-valve setup. Thus i think the choice of oil doesn’t make a lot of difference in these engines, unlike some other engines.

My thoughts exactly. I have a rule that I try not to break and that is to not respond to oil threads but FWIW, my thinking is that the most important thing regarding KLR's and oil is that there is enough of it......it's also nice if it meets the specs and is roughly the right viscosity.

I use Kawi oil but not because I think it's better than everything else, it's because I pick up my filters from my local dealer and grab oil at the same time. I'd have no issue running Rotella or XYZ as long as it met JASO MA2......and if it does, it is "motorcycle oil" as far as your KLR is concerned.

2 cents,
Dave

 

[Biggs3118]

Ok folks, I reached out to Mr. Lake Speed Jr. aka the motor oil geek.

@pdwestman
@PeteK
@DPelletier
@SirMarksAllot
@Timlang60

If you don't follow him I highly recommend you go do so. His family is legendary within the racing community and he is in fact an oil expert aka degree in tribology!

Based on his reply, the next video he releases is going to discuss/test the Oil extreme product. To what extent, I'm not sure. However I'm confident that it'll be extremely informative.

@CamoColton Dunning-kruger much?

Does everyone think I'm just some guy with opinions that I pull out of thin air? It sure seems that way by all of the unintelligent responses I typically receive. I've dedicated most of my adult life to the racing industry.

Sh#ts hilarious, honestly.

Best wishes
Never take my word for it, always do your own research!

 

[Biggs3118]

Comapring oil sample results from one engine to another, using different oils is the proverbial “apples and oranges

@PeteK
Could you explain for me the difference in the metallurgy between a KLR engine and other engines of similar function? I like to learn too.

Last time I checked, aluminum block/head, iron cylinder sleeve, cast aluminum piston, stainless valves, viton seals, nodular steel cam/seats, flat tappet, ductile rings and 56100 roller bearings...

What's so specific about the KLR that makes it "apples to oranges" from other I.C.E. engines?

Please explain. @pdwestman as I believe you subscribe to this notion as well.

I welcome some intelligent discourse.
Best wishes

 

[PeteK]

A full discussion would take too long to type out. As you know the metallurgy of a KLR engine isn't exotic--it's pretty basic. That's not what makes the difference in oil sample tests.

Short answer: It's the operating conditions. E.g., whether the carb is running rich, the rider is hard on and off the throttle, city. traffic or highway, the air filter or oil filter lets more or less dirt through, the sealants used on covers and gaskets when replaced, whether it operates in a dry or humid environment, different fuel grades and additives, yada, yada. Sure, if you pull two engines off the assembly line and put them on dynos and run them for hundreds of hours in the same test profile on the same fuel and oil, the oil test results "should" be the same; but that's not what happens in the real world.

As BSL lab tests show, there's a wide range of wear metals and contaminants for the same type engines at the same mileage. Test labs have a large number of engines and oils and results in their databases, so if you paw through that data, you might find some trends with different oils in the same engines at similar mileage (unfortunately, I suspect that not many KLR owners do oil sample analysis, both because we are cheap bastards, and the analysis costs more than an oil change, so I doubt there is a large database for KLRs).

I read in one of BSL's newsletters a couple years ago about which oils they found were better based on their data; and if I recall correctly, they didn't conclude that there is a significant difference. I don't have time to go searching for that article right now, but it's out there somewhere --which also supports my conjecture that the KLR isn't sensitive to the specific brand or type of oil.

Thus, comparing the samples from one KLR engine in one place and operating conditions under one owner to another using different oil and everything else, I don't think will yield a statistically valid observation, which is the reason for my "apples and oranges" analogy. Maybe I should say instead, that the noise overwhelms the signal you're looking for.

Thump on!

 

[Biggs3118]

Short answer: It's the operating conditions. E.g., whether the carb is running rich, the rider is hard on and off the throttle, city. traffic or highway, the air filter or oil filter lets more or less dirt through, the sealants used on covers and gaskets when replaced, whether it operates in a dry or humid environment, different fuel grades and additives, yada, yada

Isn't that precisely why one would want to compare different oils, to determine which one performs the best across the board given a diverse set of conditions?

What it appeared you were saying is that the KLR engine is apples to oranges from other engines so cross testing would be invalid. No?

Please forgive my inexorable self. I like facts.

 

[Biggs3118]

I simply came here and basically said, hey this particular oil that no one has heard about is chemically superior to anything on the market and again somehow it turned into a sh@t storm of opinions, misnomers and down right condescension trying to "disprove" my recommendation.

It's truly amazing to me that not one person said something to the effect of, wow that's interesting, I hadn't heard about that, I'll have to do some research of my own. Not one!

Fact is, oil extreme IS the best kept secret in racing, I applaud @Gunnar88 for doing some research and admitting as much.

I checked the oil forum and they did some testing and research on this stuff in 2002. I guess It has been a well kept secret!

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3959

I'm just sorry now that I mentioned it here...as many a Marine have said before FML!

I have better things to do with the limited time I have left, the hell with passing on knowledge to the next generation.

Best wishes

 

[Tom Schmitz]

I'm very simple-minded. I used to use Rotella and sometimes Delo. I did oil samples and they looked pretty good. I switched to Kawasaki oil and the samples were better. I felt that a worse issue was oil consumption and subsequent head loss. The oil reports allayed fears that the lump was going to eat itself. I'm not worried about power or fuel economy, either.

For a bike that, if it fails on a trip, I will strip off whatever I can carry that is of value and kick the rest over into the ditch, that satisfies my search for a good oil. If not searching for the ne plus ultra of oils makes me unworthy, so be it. I've spent enough time doing KLRScience and doing things to improve oiling and reduce consumption.

 

[pdwestman]

Please explain. @pdwestman as I believe you subscribe to this notion as well.

Why do KLR650 engines tend to darken their engine oils so quickly?
Could it be the blow-by past the piston rings? Isn't there generally more blow-by in larger diameter bores than smaller diameter bores, even if they have more cylinders?
Or could it be the chosen clutch plate material?
BSL tells us that oil Color change does NOT necessarily mean that the oil is worn out! Therefore was part of the reason that I ran that first ever oil change with Kawasaki 10W40 during my oil Flow/Pressure modifications for 5000miles.

Could the heat treatment & Finish of the crankshaft/clutch primary gears and all ten of the transmission gears in our lowly KLR650 be harsher on our engine oils than say a Kawasaki H2 Ninja?

Did you or anyone else ever divide the ppm of wear metals from my engine oil at 5K miles and compare them to the 1.9K miles Universal Averages that BSL had at that time? I have.

Maybe my near 90K miles have polished my internal gear train? Or maybe the first year models were lavished with TLC from the factory? haha.

Apples to Oranges?

 

[PeteK]

Isn't that precisely why one would want to compare different oils, to determine which one performs the best across the board given a diverse set of conditions?

What it appeared you were saying is that the KLR engine is apples to oranges from other engines so cross testing would be invalid. No?

Please forgive my inexorable self. I like facts.

Not going there. I already went down this rabbit hole, wasting several hours, and I ain't doing it any more. Since you are making the claim that the Oil Extreme is the best oil or oil treatment since the Roman Empire, I challenge you to back up that assertion with facts.

Do a test like this to control (most of) your variables:
Run your KLR on a baseline oil, say T4. Do three oil changes at 3000 miles, for a total run on the T4 of 9000 miles. Send in oil samples each time and post your results.. Then change to Oil Extreme and do the same sequence. THEN you will be comparing apples to apples. Even so, I strongly suspect you won't find much difference in a KLR engine.

In other words, do the tests Tom and Paul have already done, but using Oil Extreme. THEN you will have data.

Post your results.

 

[DPelletier]

Oil Extreme may be the best thing to ever hit an internal combustion engine......I have no idea. What I do know is that Bill has 200,000 miles on his unrebuilt 2004 KLR using Mobil 1 oil. I don't believe there is anything special about Mobil 1 but I do know I'll be long dead before either of my KLR's get half that mileage on them so it makes me a bit ambivalent about investigating if there is anything better and I suspect (as Pete has said) that it makes little real difference on a KLR which doesn't exactly have a highly stressed or high rpm engine.

Reminds me of this: https://www.blackstone-labs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Aug-17-ENG.pdf

I think its great that Biggs posted about a product most of us haven't considered for those wanting to look into it but weighing the potential merits of various oils you may wish to use in your KLR isn't something I have much interest in......I'll go back to playing with my suspension.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[CamoColton]

It's not the suggestion of a new product other should consider -- it's OP's messianic attitude without sharing any data, while repeatedly saying "do your own research". And immediately inferring all are naïve in the first post. I've attempted research, all I find is ancient forum posts on BITOG (mostly unfavorable) and other older forums, but no reports (the linked thread is 22 years old). When others disagreed and were suspicious, OP immediately played victim and claimed we're all "shooting the messenger". Others have mentioned the manufacturer's marketing, and it’s hard to argue with them calling it cringe-worthy. And the endorsements -- STP is endorsed by Richard Petty (The KING!!) to this day. Would anyone use it?

I'm a "sometimes-Rotella, sometimes MC-oil" user and someone could say "Rotella is the best oil and if you use something else you're an idiot" and I'd write them off just the same. And regardless of how many miles on their bike.

 

[Gunnar88]

Most of the research I see on the Bob is the Oil Guy forum is breakdowns of multiple labs analysis and breakdowns of Material Data Sheets, so yea real science stuff. And "claims" of greatness are treated pretty harshly over there" Slick 50 comes to mind. Project Farm tests are fun to watch but not necessarily applicable to what's happening in the engine. I dont think there are any oil secrets, if someone made a revolutionary product, that eliminated wear and friction and increased fuel milage they would patent it and then sing it from tree tops to make money. The only post I could find on the forum over there was 22 years old and the guy was claiming all these things and nothing ever came of it. Another thing was RPM someone mentioned high RPM, and that is relative, a long stroke pushrod motor running at 9000 rpm is quite different that a the KLR which itself is quite different that a truly modern motor like say a new Kawasaki zx-10, with pipe and reflash makes 200 HP per liter, if we could get half of that performance out of a the KLR we would be getting 64 horsepower, thats KTM territory and probably KTM problems too! If Oil Extreme oil additive really got 2mpg more using it 22 years ago we would all know about it, every oil maker in the world would be paying to use their special sauce! The KLR is a low stress motor with low performance that has been around barely changed for 40 years, it worked fine on the oil from 40 years ago! I think we can all agree today's oil is better than 1984 formulated oil.


I got oil stories too. Im not dumb like they say, I'm smart!!

In 1994 I ran a pure ester synthetic that was straight ZERO made by Neo, they are still around but they dont make straight zero anymore. In 1994 I road raced a highly modified Honda Hawk 650 GT that make about the same power as a KLR stock. My best effort over 3 years got it up to 72 hp and still a 650, well 1mm over. The list of things I had to do was epic; one of those things was a custom cam grind from Megacycle. I was getting free oil from Motul in 93 and one season saw my cams worn down, so the next season I ran the free zero weight (I think retail was $10 a quart and I seem to recall buying regular oil for $1.19 and the cheapest quart of oil at Walmart is $4.98 now so in todays money that would be what at least $40 a quart?) and that was DIFFERENT everyone seemed to run 20/50 some guys ran straight 50 some of the AHRMA vintage guys ran bean oil in the crankcase! (I love the smell of a two stroke burning bean oil in the morning. racetrack flashback!) My cams showed no wear at the end of the season. I ran at the minimum mark on the dipstick and I had an oil temp gauge and would often see 320 degrees, I changed it with a factory filter every other weekend. The guys I raced with in AHRMA were mostly vintage guys and when they saw me pouring "water" into my motor they would howl in disbelief and I do mean howl! I even put that used zero weight into my race van, a 1972 Dodge Tradesman with a 318, and I swear it idled 750 rpm higher ( side note: Redline Watter Wetter which at the time looked like pink pop rocks candy and you mixed it with distilled water, I still run that stuff in everything thats water cooled) dropped the temp gauge for 2/3 to 1/2, on the old race van, I can't remember the actual numbers) fast forward to 2024 and I just watched a Lake Speed JR video ( he's a Tribologist) of him changing the oil in his daughters Corolla and low and behold he is using 0W-8 oil! 0W-8 is the factory recommended oil! It only took Toyota 30 years to catch up! ( another side note he poured a NEW quart through the motor to "rinse" before putting the drain plug back in and I howled!! I have never seen such a thing in my life.......oh the humanity!!! I also herby swear on a stack of old Clymer manuals that when I buy the next gen Kawasaki Concours that WILL be super charged and WILL make 200 horsepower bone stock and all the BMW guys WILL weep silently over their canbus catalog that I WILL "rinse" the motor out with one quart of brand new........T6!

 

[daave]

Go to Bob is the Oil Guy forum and you will see all the Amsoil reports you want.

I haven’t been there in a while, but I don’t remember anything bad about AMSOIL. Has this changed?

 

[line6distortion]

I have used Amsoil quite a bit ( sleds) and no complaints - the two stroke is not the best smelling but motors run like hell and havent broken down ever have also used in klr but have found other full syn MA-2 which are cheaper all good L6

 

[Gunnar88]

I dont think so, the point was there is data to make an informed decision, or satisfy your curiosity, like the oil analysis reports and the Material Data Sheets along with expert opinions on what those things mean. Thats more meaningful than I ran Amsoil in everything Ive ever owned and ive never blow up a motor therefore if you dont run Amsoil your motor will blow up... or whatever, I think the consensus from the data on Amsoil was that it had an upgraded additive package like many other up brands of oil like Royal Purple, Redline...... Commercially available oil is the base oil plus the additive package. Im not an expert by any means, Bob is The Oil Guy is where I go to find out about stuff about oil, like people come here to find out stuff about KLR's of course there are "varied" options about stuff but that forum tends toward data as opposed to opinion. One thing I was able to glean from questions like " what's the best oil to run in my car?" the answer was the top shelf oils are a little better but not enough better to justify the money, so just running Walmart oil in your car is 98% as good as any regular name brand. Also yes synthetic is better and what the word "synthetic" actually means was a good one and in the end changing your oil is better than running X brand oil. In fact I have a buddy with a Chevy van he bought new the 4.8 v8 and it has 90,000 miles on it and he runs Mobil 1 and skips an oil change because of that so instead of 7500 mile he does it at 15000. I talked him into running an oil analysis and basically the report says change your oil more often.