[Tom Schmitz]

pdwestman -

I'm having difficulty following the thread; forgive me if I'm asking a stoopid question.

What is your objective? I think I read that you are after less oil pressure ("I felt my '87-A1 needed less"). Is that true? It seems odd when the pressure reading at running rpm is 1 psi.

What is your theory here? Are you after more flow through the cam caps with a resulting drop in pressure? I'm confused.

I guess my take on it is that if the engine is developing the design oil pressure at the test point then there will be adequate flow and pressure throughout the engine.

If normal wear increases the clearances at the cam caps more oil, either in flow or pressure, is not going to save them.

Again, I'm confused as to the objective.

T

 

[Tom Schmitz]

...
The most confussing thing is, mistaking the needs of a rolling element crank rod pin, with the needs of Precision Plain Bearings used in automobile engine crankshafts and NEWER STREET BIKES.
Then throw in precision plain bearings (NON-REPLACEABLE) WAY UP THERE, in the head, for the camshafts....

Yes, that's understood. The big end, and several other bearings in the case, are splash lubricated ball bearings.

The cam bearings are bearings that require some pressure and some flow in order to survive.

That's why we see engines that have lost the bearings in the head, yet the bottom end remains good. Those roller/ball bearings can do with very little lubrication and survive quite nicely.

I have looked at your hot numbers and the numbers for the main galley (and I believe you are using the designed test point to take the main galley reading) are all out of spec, the spec being 11-21 at operating temperature.

What I wonder is why the pressure is so high and I'd wonder if there was a blockage that reduced flow and raised pressure. Of course, you haven't blown up your bike in the past three years, so there can't be anything too terribly wrong, but it does present a mystery.

I also think the only data that is relevant is the hot data. The cold data simply confuses the presentation.

I understand that you have lapped the valve seat on the pressure relief valve and stopped some leakage there. That seems like a very good fix. What were the pressure numbers after the lapping?

Thanks,

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Thanks, Paul, the pictures and video add a great deal to the discussion and are helpful.

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Paul -

I'm trying to get this all straight in my head; here's what I've come up with the summarize the data.

Is this pretty much correct?

I'm especially concerned that I've got the mods that you did captured. Did I miss anything?

I'm not quite clear on when you drilled out the passage in the oil cap and modified the feed port inside the filter cavity.

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Paul -

I take it I got a bit of the cart before the horse then. I'll go back through and see where I got that mixed up and correct the table.

Irrespective of my error, it's graphically apparent what your changes have done to the cam pressure.

I'm still digesting the data to see what I might want to do. I did lap a relief valve seat, but have not installed it, and have a set of banjo bolts sitting on the bench waiting for me to do something.

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Could this be one of those old retired guy threads? :tent6:

Nope. When you're retired you do this:

Thanks for the thought, though.

T

 

[Tom Schmitz]

T

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Bumped for access.

T

 

[Tom Schmitz]

...Sorry you are not able to go along, Tom S. Seen you in July?...

Yes, trying to find five days.

Have ordered three banjo fittings and have lapped a valve seat.

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

jj -

Thanks! The question is which week and what starting day. It's been established by TLW that it needs to encompass a weekend and, since it takes two days to get to Lander, the Great Escape from LA will likely start on a Saturday.

Tim's coming, too. We'll meet up in Vegas and overnight in Beaver, UT.

Aw, c'mon Jeff. It's not far, it'll be fun!

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Jeff -

It would be another 1000 mile ride to my house for a beer. Better to meet up in Lander for a beer.

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Paul -

There are a couple of things I'm trying to understand.

Your second mod was to solder and drill a KLX650 bolt. Later you specified that a 1641 bolt be used at the cam. Did your modification result in the same hole size and configuration as the 1641?

The reason I ask is that the soldered and drilled KLX650 bolt resulted in a cam pressure of 9 psi at 6,000 rpm. If the modified bolt is the same as a 1641, fine. If not I need to hunt down what the pressure was at the cam and where it falls in the sequence of mods.

Another thing is that when you put a 1349 at the transmission the cam pressure fell. Understandable.

However, when you lapped the pressure relief valve the cam pressure also fell and that's not something I'd expect. Do you think that was simply variability in the measurement, or did I miss a mod between the transmission banjo bolt and the lapping?

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Paul -

Thanks for clarifying all that.

I'm going to have to solder a fitting onto a bolt so that I can measure pressure at the head. I don't want to do these mods without being able to see what changes.

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Just got back from a very nice visit with Paul where I got up close and personal with his work and even got to ride his bike.

The whole point of the trip was to go meet Paul, but Tim and I went to Cody, rode Chief Joseph Highway, Beartooth Highway and pass to Red Lodge MT and returned through Yellowstone, Montpelier ID and Ely NV.

Tim headed home via the Extraterrestrial Highway and I went home via Vegas.

It was 108 in Baker.

The KLR was a champ.

Tom

https://spotwalla.com/tripViewer.ph...yes&showHome=yes&hoursPast=0&fillFactor=100&zoomLevel=10&showWeather=no&units=F

 

[Tom Schmitz]

I measured some banjo bolts and came up with some interesting (to me) information.

What I found interesting is that for all the bolts except the 92150-1641 it is the cross hole that controls the flow.

The total area of the 92150-1641 cross holes is larger than the shaft hole, so it is the shaft hole that controls the flow.

I hope to get a stock banjo and a 1641 chucked up in the lathe tonight or tomorrow so that they can be faced and have fittings soldered to them. A gauge should be coming soon.

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Paul -

I figured the same. Tomorrow morning I'll go back to the Shed of Horrors and dig out the KLR600 and KLR650 pipes (which I just had in my hand this morning) and measure the ID of the pipe.

Pretty sure the 1641 is just built to be a wide open banjo bolt with no flow control.

I'm also going to set up a bore gauge and measure the oil filter cavity for taper and out-of-round as we discussed. I think it has an odd shape. Might do that tonight, as it's all together in the shop right now.

And I think you are correct...

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Paul -

If my samples are representative of what Kawasaki has built and not just manufacturing variations, I think you're on to something with your mod to the filter well.

Looking at your cover I had thought that the tapered bore was significantly ovalized (imagine taking the bottom out of a paper cup and then squeezing it a bit) but the roundness is what you'd expect in a rather non-critical large, bored hole.

The pipe diameter is difficult to measure due to very limited access (and I don't want to take a pipe apart), but my small bore gauge worked well enough. The pipe inside diameter is .160". Kawasaki may have actually planned all of this...

Bolts are faced and soldered. Over the next few days I have to find a place to put the gauge.

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Norm -

Paul covered it; the head is to small to drill and tap, especially the new bolts.

I used silver solder for the butt joint. When making a joint like this I do a torque test to make sure the joint is secure.

On the issue of flow characteristics - I'm not sure that there's enough flow at 9psi to account for much. It's sort of like the aerodynamic drag on a Peterbilt at 2 mph ;^).

I wonder how far a .160 orifice will shoot oil at 9psi.

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

No, the question was a good one and was taken in that spirit. On the stock bolt you might just get away with drilling and tapping for 1/8 NPT but the new bolts have no meat in the head. A butt joint is about the only way to go unless you want to build your own bolts and I don't feel much up to that job. Plumbing solder will do just fine; I happened to have silver solder on hand.

I think a simple test (though it wouldn't yield numbers) would be to build an oil reservoir to give you the right head of pressure and see how far the oil squirts out of an open .160 orifice. Then repeat the test with the oil running through the KLR oil pipe (intermediate banjos sealed) and out the last banjo bolt. That would pretty near duplicate most of the twists and turn the oil goes through on the way to the head.

Of course, there's really nothing much you can do to improve the results of the test. There was a time when we experimented with pumping abrasive slurries at high pressure to improve flow characteristics in some high-pressure/flow hydraulics. It's beyond the capabilities of The Little Shop Of Horrors here. I'm more along the lines of 'beat to shape, file to fit, paint to match".

Tom

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Oh, the job was done this morning, first thing...

Tom