[pdwestman]

How much engine oil is in circulation when the engine is running?

That is, the sump has 2.5ℓ of oil in it when the engine is stopped and the site glass shows full. When the engine is started the oil in the sight glass drops completely out of sight. That means that at least half a liter is in circulation, but how much more than that? How much remains in the sump?

I think these questions are intended for the general membership to ponder for a bit.

So how about some input guys?

 

[pdwestman]

How much engine oil is in circulation when the engine is running?

ALL of IT.

Tom,
To whom was this post intended? And why?
The general membership seems to be shy with answers today.

 

[Tom Schmitz]

Paul,

It was intended for everyone. There is an amount of oil that is just sufficient to keep oil moving through the engine. Let's say the sump needs to have half a liter just to keep the pickup submerged so the oil pump can draw. And let's say that filling all of the galleries and cavities takes another quarter liter and that there is another quarter liter on its way back to the sump.

In total, one liter.

Any less than that and the oil pressure is going to be intermittent as the pump starves until enough oil refills the sump above the half liter level, then it pumps the sump below a half liter and starves itself again. Rinse, lather, repeat.

The engine is on the verge of oil failure.

The question was meant to spark conversation along those lines.

As I said in my last post, we know that being a half liter low won't hurt anything. @Daniel Kavcak is bringing an abused 1993 KLR back to life and said that he drained only a quart and a half out of it, but he didn't report any head damage.

I wondered what people's thoughts were on how much oil was in circulation (in motion above the sump) at any one time. I can get a set of cases out and measure pretty close how much oil needs to be in the sump to just submerge the pickup.

 

[pdwestman]

You have posted those pics previously. You may wish to edit this post to embed the pic or pics.

http://www.klrforum.com/363002-post17.html

Thank you

Many years back, I drained a mere .5-.7 QT of engine oil from a NY tourist KLR which the bronze bushing on the starter ring gear had seized to the crankshaft. (In 8 years on the KLR forums I've yet to read of another starter ring gear seizure. Before, with or after Exhaust cam bearing damage.)

The top end sounded normal after starter drive was repaired, we did not pull the valve cover, he continued on to MT and PNW with his friend. Being as we never heard back from him, we guess he got Extremely lucky. But we will never know for sure.

 

[Daniel Kavcak]

Paul,

It was intended for everyone. There is an amount of oil that is just sufficient to keep oil moving through the engine. Let's say the sump needs to have half a liter just to keep the pickup submerged so the oil pump can draw. And let's say that filling all of the galleries and cavities takes another quarter liter and that there is another quarter liter on its way back to the sump.

In total, one liter.

Any less than that and the oil pressure is going to be intermittent as the pump starves until enough oil refills the sump above the half liter level, then it pumps the sump below a half liter and starves itself again. Rinse, lather, repeat.

The engine is on the verge of oil failure.

The question was meant to spark conversation along those lines.

As I said in my last post, we know that being a half liter low won't hurt anything. @Daniel Kavcak is bringing an abused 1993 KLR back to life and said that he drained only a quart and a half out of it, but he didn't report any head damage.

I wondered what people's thoughts were on how much oil was in circulation (in motion above the sump) at any one time. I can get a set of cases out and measure pretty close how much oil needs to be in the sump to just submerge the pickup.

Thanks @Tom Schmitz for including me in this!
So as of now, I have put around 300 miles on the KLR. I plan on draining it in the next 200 miles to measure how much I'm actually using, if any.
I'm hoping that the last owner may have just been like "Der der der, I'm going to dump some 1:50 (that's gas to oil ratio, because that's what came out when I drained it) in the crankcase and call it a day. Looks good, ship it!"
But these next 200 miles I'm just going to have to guess since the speedo cable or speedo gears decided to die last night.

 

[pdwestman]

Over the past 2 years + 1 day there have been an additional 21,316 visits to this thread.
Current total, 81,630.

Sorry that the early pics got Photobombed. I hope the info still helps.

Here is a link to Tom Schmitz's complete write-up of all of our combined work, if you haven't already found it.

Paul Westman's Mods to Fight Oil Burning

 

[pdwestman]

From Post #292, on 11-19-2014.

I'll only suggest, that most of us forum members 'rarely' unsubscribe from a thread, which we feel may not have 'run it's full course'! Ya' never know what new info may pop-up on your screen?

I'm personally 'aiming' for 2.00 mm crankshaft oil control orifice size!
There, I said it!!

Wish me good luck?

Well I never quite got completely down to my target of 2.00mm crankshaft oil control orifice size.

At 2.06mm and a 3000 mile oil analysis, the ppm wear metal numbers had a slight increase.
Even with the slight increase, when divide by the mileage the report was still better than the BSL 2000 mile Universal Averages.

So I could have continued to use the 2.06, but I did reinstall the 2.18mm orifice in November 2017.

ps, Wow, I've spent most of this afternoon skimming and re-reading this thread from post #230 where I left off last night. Other than quoted posts, I don't see any other PhotoBombed pics.

 

[John Douglas Watson]

Did ya notice, that the pressure releif valve didn't even have to operate, its leaking a plenty, even on COLD 20W50.
pdwestman

Hi There, I’m interested could you go into more detail on the procedure to increase the oil pressure ? I’ve never done anything like that before ? However I do try to always spin my engine prior to starting it up to move some oil up-too the top end ! I would like for you to break-it-down for us ignorant folk that might mess up when dealing with such a modification/upgrading to the oil or lubricating system ? I do have a Scotts Performance Stainless Oil Filter which I’ve had installed since 500 original miles & running 20-50wt.Texaco Havoline 4-Stroke Racing MotorCycle Oil & LUCAS Motorcycle oil stabilizer as it is between 70-100+ Degrees here in South East Texas almost year round ? I would like to here about the other things you did to help ? As you mentioned at least two enhancements ? Also do you spin or crank over your engine 7-10 seconds before start-up especially after it has been sitting overnight or after an extended period like on a cold-engine, to get the oil headed up-to the Top-End ? It is proven to save rings & cam bearing surfaces ! Any way I’ve caught most of this in the (middle), as you said and would like to learn more about what you did or possibly will do too remedy or increase the oil-pressure on a KLR-650 ?
Thanks Again !
Please Advise ?
Sincerely & Respectfully !
John D Watson

 

[Tom Schmitz]

@John Douglas Watson

Post Page

www.souperdoo.com

 

[John Douglas Watson]

justjeff,
I do not know how much, just lapping the releif valve seat will increase anybodys pressure. Depends on HOW MUCH the releif valve is currently leaking?
We learn from experience, our own or others.
I found the leakage after 3 other mods to my oil system. And made this and one other mod at the same time. Now helping others to avoid my error. I was IN THE MIDDLE again.
pdwestman

Please Continue & explain in detail all of your modifications & enhancements ? We all need to do this stuff as you can’t add doo-dads & thinga-ma-jigs to a machine that has worn out ahead of its Time ? Especially when concerning something as important as the oil pressure & lubricating system ?
Thank-You !
Please Advise ?
Sincerely !
John D Watson

 

[John Douglas Watson]

I think that the average KLRista doesn't realize the implications of what you are trying to do or change and why you are wanting to do this. I do. It's only when you start understanding why and what it is that you start to want more information. It was extremely interesting hearing all of you findings etc and your past experiences with your KLR.
Like you I want as much oil up at the head as possible and I want to have an accurate guage showing me this pressure so IF, anything changes in the head I can adjust so that I can save my head. I have only ever seen one lower end get burned up from oil issues, but many heads, cams etc.......with the amount of money we spend on modifying our engines especially the head, this information is extremely informative.
We both have been looking at the flow to the head but for different reasons. We have both done similar modifications to the oil flow characteristics as to get more oil to the head.
Like I said when people understand why and what for then they will ask for more....but until they have a personal interest....they won't.
IMHO...it's their loss.......to each their own.
I wouldn't take it personally at all........the idea is to share the knowledge but as the saying goes.....you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink......
I'll go back to the PM world as to not inflame the thread......with arguementive theory........

Help us ignorant folk who didn’t suspect any thing wrong cause we just didn’t know ? Help us inlighten us and show us what we need to do to fix it anybody everybody this should be one if not the most important threads on this site ? Help us ?
Sincerely!
John D Watson 2007 KLR-650 1,250 miles

 

[John Douglas Watson]

Continue come on guys I know their is a Rocket Scientist here somewhere to help us out this dilemma of the KLR Oil-Pressure & Lubrication & Circulation issues ? Help us out here for goodness sakes ? We common regular folks need help too ?
Please Advise ?
Thank-You !
Sincerely !
John

 

[Damocles]

Help us ignorant folk who didn’t suspect any thing wrong cause we just didn’t know ? Help us inlighten us and show us what we need to do to fix it anybody everybody this should be one if not the most important threads on this site ? Help us ?
Sincerely!
John D Watson 2007 KLR-650 1,250 miles

If you're addressing, "willys," JDW: He hasn't been seen on this forum in many moons. He started the KLR650 forum on ADV, but . . . looks like he was banned on that thread, although some confirmed sightings of his posts have appeared on, "Regional," threads on that website.

 

[pdwestman]

Any way I’ve caught most of this in the (middle), as you said and would like to learn more about what you did or possibly will do too remedy or increase the oil-pressure on a KLR-650 ?
Thanks Again !
Please Advise ?

Do you really need more oil pressure? If so where & why? Or do you really want more volume? Where & Why?
Maybe we need less volume somewhere? This is not a precision plain bearing crankshaft engine design.

You've got a whole more reading to do. It is all in there.
Here is the cheat sheet, that you overlooked.

PDW Oil Flow Mods, order of importance.

I can only give you all, my suggestions. #1, Like sooo much else about the KLR650, it doesn't seem to care 'in which order'! But it does seem to respond well to Mods. #2, Thermo-Bob, Thermo-Bob 2 or Thermo-Bob 3. Or Normk's DIY radiator by-pass system. All with 185-195F. thermostats. Get the...

www.klrforum.com

@John Douglas Watson

Post Page

www.souperdoo.com

But Tom Schmitz's Souperdoo link has videos & is more reader friendly. Click on IT!

 

[Belldriver]

I own both, a few KLRs of various flavours and a Honda XR650L. A unicorn in my neck of the woods as Honda never officially imported and sold that bike in Europe.

The XR suffers from the same problem. Some kind soul went through some really big effort to cure the mess.
Watch both his videos from front to back twice and translate / apply the sizes and dimensions for the KLR given here by Paul.

Edit: The author, Greyrider on another forum, removed his videos from youtube. So I deleted the links from this post.

 

[pdwestman]

I own both, a few KLRs of various flavours and a Honda XR650L. A unicorn in my neck of the woods as Honda never officially imported and sold that bike in Europe.

The XR suffers from the same problem. Some kind soul went through some really big effort to cure the mess.
Watch both his videos from front to back twice and translate / apply the sizes and dimensions for the KLR given here by Paul.

Wow, the liquid-cooled / wet sump KLR was/is so much easier to modify than his air-cooled / dry sump XR650L was.
I notice that the XR/XRL engines provide un-filtered oil to the transmission shafts in video #2 schematic drawings provided.

Do you have any idea as to the starting date of his XR650L oiling modifications? I started my KLR650 project in Autumn of 2012. I currently have over 24,000 miles of 'reliability testing' of my incremental oiling system modifications on my bike.

I will have another BSL oil report, using 'well abused' for 3000miles, Kawasaki 20W50 petroleum oil, posting in the near future.

 

[Fepony]

Okay, great thread, let me toss in the monkey wrench. What is more important, psi or flow rate? Is there a difference? Does it matter? High volume as opposed to high pressure.

 

[Tom Schmitz]

In the OEM configuration, the cams survive just fine on very little oil flow and very little oil pressure. In fact, the entire system survives just fine on very little oil pressure at any given point in the system. Look at the "results only" thread to see values at five different points in the system.

In implementing this set of mods, we have first reduced the maximum cold oil pressure to about 28psi versus the OEM value of 75psi. We did that to protect the Bourdon tubes in the test gauges and it doesn't seem to have hurt anything. We have diverted oil flow from the crankshaft, wrist pin, and piston without harming anything. There is no place in the system that will have more than 28psi, but that is a bit of a red herring, as the oil pump generally won't even make that much pressure. It really makes about half that when up to temperature.

Arguably, then, we could design the system to run the cams and transmission at the levels found in the OEM system and reduce the flow to the crank, wrist pin, and piston to the levels in this set of mods and expect the engine to be quite happy.

What all that tells me is that this engine doesn't need high pressure or a lot of oil flow. It just needs moving oil at a few psi. Give it that and it will be just fine.

Take away either and you will have a totaled head in nine seconds, just as many blissful '08 and '09 owners have learned.

 

[John Douglas Watson]

Can ANYBODY recite the oil pressure for a 1984-1986 KLR600?
pdwestman

My2007 KLR-650at full operational temperature or a reading 210 degrees on the temperature gauge/cap at 1,300 RPM with a SCOTTS Stainless 30,000 micron oil filter at the cap is 11 psi at idle & it goes up from there almost to 21-25 psi at 5.000 rpm ! That’s as far as I rev my bike w/no-load in neutral & that’s with Valvoline 4-stroke Racing 20/50 Paraffin or petroleum based motor oil ! Hope this helps & it also matters how old & thinned out the oil is ? My crankcase oil always has a hint of a gasoline smell to it ? I’m gonna put the old style vented float bowl like the old ones with the dip or overflow tube & serif this makes any difference? I think your oil pressure on these bikes, all of them is relative to temperature-weight or VIS of the oil & petroleum & or synthetic or para/synthetic ? I know you should have between at least 7-9 psi at idle hot motor ? My bike has 2,000 original miles on the 2007 motor there are no mods other than I have priced the carb issues with a SHNITZ RACING Titanium Needle & #42 slow jet & a 141.5 Main Jet with the updated atomizer & the drilling out of the vacuum Slide hole In the carb slide ? I have the doo-hickee & Pro-Cycles version of the WATTMAN-2 Thermo-Bob with the 180 degree thermostat with Silicone High-Heat Hoses & a EIBACH 9.6 550lb Spring but have yet to do this as I’m gathering everything @ this time to do this winter ! I do got the 2-finger Clutch Arm from Camel ADV & the MOTO-Electronics fan switch & harness so I can turn my cooling fan on before it gets too hot in traffic? From the guy in Greece ! I’m getting Progressive Springs for the Front Forks & the RICOR Fork Valves as well next ? Gonna do it all this Winter at the same time ? I would like you to send me the info on lapping the pressure valve to ensure that that’s not leaking on my bike if possible? Thanks Again guys & if anyone wants the info about the CV-KEIHIN Carb by Duncan Racing on the KEIHIN CV-40 & can’t find the download let me know at my email so I can help you find it ? It explains the R & D of the CV-Carburetors & what they were designed to be ! They were supposed to be as close as possible to fuel injection out of a simple carburator using engine vacuum to feed the engine ? Until the EPA & DOT got to it & made the emissions standards so lean that they had to make changes that were not good ? But there is hope with the KLX needle & or one from SHNITZ RACING you can get back your tunability completely ! My email address is johndwatson7@gmail.com if your interested in why the tapers slide needle is so important to these machines it will all be self explanatory! Thanks Sgain please send me the info on lapping the oil pressure seat valve as well if possible I’d like that ?
Sincerely & Respectfully !
John D Watson
2007 KAWASAKI KLR-650 2000 original miles

 

[Belldriver]

That is too much of an effort to read. Paragraphs would be nice.